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Msg ID: 2805626 Turbine engine Oil consumption +0/-5     
Author:Anonymous
2/18/2024 12:16:16 PM

Does it get logged ?  What's acceptable before you get carbon Monoxide poisioning ?



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Msg ID: 2805628 Turbine engine Oil consumption +4/-1     
Author:Retired
2/18/2024 12:25:48 PM

Reply to: 2805626

We don't have a CO detector in the cabin so; there's no oil being burned.



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Msg ID: 2805633 You are required to log oil added. (NT) +0/-1     
Author:see FARs 43.5(a) & 43.9
2/18/2024 1:02:00 PM

Reply to: 2805626


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Msg ID: 2805635 You are required to log oil added. +6/-1     
Author:Ahhh!
2/18/2024 1:14:58 PM

Reply to: 2805633

Oil consumption Limits are in the engine maintenance manual. Adding oil is considered servicing, not maintenance. Unless there is a exhaust leak into the cabin, CO issues unlikely...

Let's move on to the next random thought.



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Msg ID: 2805638 Adding oil is a preventive maintenance item +0/-1     
Author:(since it is not meant to be consumed)
2/18/2024 1:25:45 PM

Reply to: 2805635

see Appendix A to FAR 43(c)(6)



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Msg ID: 2805640 Adding oil is a preventive maintenance item +2/-1     
Author:Ahhh!
2/18/2024 1:37:48 PM

Reply to: 2805638

It's servicing...

b. Preventive Maintenance. Section 1.1, defines preventive maintenance as “simple or minor preservation operations and the replacement of small standard parts not involving complex assembly operations.”

Do you log fuel added in the maintenance log?



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Msg ID: 2805651 Is Oil a lubrication? Or a preservation? +3/-2     
Author:Fuel is fuel!
2/18/2024 2:53:37 PM

Reply to: 2805640

Your arguement is "do you log adding fuel"?   Fuel is not lubricant!  Oil is a lubricant.  Lubricants are maintained to prevent engine failure.  If the engine oil is low, it the in an airworthy condition??  What is the planned consumption rate of engine oil in a flight?  Do you have to report it on your flight plan "Oil Endurance in Hours and Minutes"?   No, because it is not expected to be consumed, like fuel is!  

You gave the 1.1 general definition, but Appendix A, (c)(6) specifically says "lubrication" is a preventative maintenance.  

If the transmission oil is low, do you have to write it up?   T/R gearbox?  Rotor Brake fluid??

If it's not preventative maintenance, you are saying ANYONE can do it, including the 16 kid who drives up on his skateboard.   "Hey kid, fill up that transmission for me, will ya?"

 

Maybe in a Part 91 aircraft, but this is a for-hire commerical operation under Part 135, which prohibits preventative maintenance from being performed by just anyone.  If it is not even preventative maintenance, such person can service your commerical operation aircraft.

 

If your engine has a oil consumption limitation, the ONLY way you can show you meet that is by documenting the oil you add to the system each and every time.   I have yet to see a fuel consumption limitation.

 

 



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Msg ID: 2805639 How do you know if you're over or under the limit? (NT) +1/-1     
Author:If you don't document it in the log?
2/18/2024 1:28:14 PM

Reply to: 2805635


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Msg ID: 2805642 How do you know if you're over or under the limit? +0/-1     
Author:Ahhh!
2/18/2024 1:41:36 PM

Reply to: 2805639

If you are adding oil more often than normal, write it up as a descrepancy..



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Msg ID: 2805653 What's "normal" if you have no log to determine it? How do you know 8 qts +0/-2     
Author:havn't been already added this week?
2/18/2024 2:55:12 PM

Reply to: 2805642

by another person if it is not documented?



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Msg ID: 2805637 Turbine engine Oil consumption (NT) +1/-2     
Author:dude, what have you've been smoking
2/18/2024 1:23:04 PM

Reply to: 2805626


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Msg ID: 2805654 Turbine engine Oil consumption +1/-1     
Author:and
2/18/2024 3:03:26 PM

Reply to: 2805637

If what you are smoking is turbine oil,  get a CO2 detector. 

 



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Msg ID: 2805655 Turbine engine Oil consumption +1/-1     
Author:youcan be signed off
2/18/2024 3:20:18 PM

Reply to: 2805654

to add oil and you have to make a logbook entry.



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Msg ID: 2805658 Turbine engine Oil consumption +2/-1     
Author:Mech
2/18/2024 3:55:09 PM

Reply to: 2805626

W T F?



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Msg ID: 2805659 Turbine engine Oil consumption +0/-1     
Author:Answer
2/18/2024 5:16:37 PM

Reply to: 2805658

You're right, pole vaulting over a mouse turd

 

AFM: servicing



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Msg ID: 2805669 Servicing *is* maintenance! (NT) +0/-1     
Author:Mechanic's Handbook!
2/18/2024 6:30:57 PM

Reply to: 2805659


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Msg ID: 2805670 So, if it's just "servicing", you can have the nurse do it! (NT) +0/-1     
Author:And, you don't even need to supervise
2/18/2024 6:47:33 PM

Reply to: 2805659


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Msg ID: 2805672 So, if it's just "servicing", you can have the nurse do it! +0/-2     
Author:Retired
2/18/2024 9:24:21 PM

Reply to: 2805670

Sounds like we have a non standard method of doing business.  "Servicing or Maintenance"  Call it what you want ?   It doesn't matter what you call it.  Please log it.

My mechanic was really good at adding oil.  I never saw any write up, on any amount of oil added.  He probably added a half a quart every four hours in a 407.    Every time I ran the heater, I could smell the smoke, with the carcinogens in the synthetic oil, I was inhaling a boatload of poison.

I'm talking to the largest ems operator in the States, you safety types, Please put a CO detector in the cabin for me. Thanks . 



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Msg ID: 2805687 FYI: the FAA has stated a number of times... +0/-3     
Author:adding engine oil...
2/19/2024 7:29:00 AM

Reply to: 2805626
is a preflight task and is not considered maintenance, ie., no Part 43 write up required. Same goes for refueling, cleaning windshield, etc. The guidance is out there. However, some operators require an entry but that is only an inhouse rule.


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Msg ID: 2805688 So, adding oil to the tailrotor gearbox is a preflight task? (NT) +0/-1     
Author:Cool
2/19/2024 7:52:09 AM

Reply to: 2805687


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Msg ID: 2805702 I never log what.... +2/-1     
Author:Gordo
2/19/2024 11:12:24 AM

Reply to: 2805688

I drink. I just drink till the bottle is all gone.



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Msg ID: 2805697 FYI: the FAA has stated a number of times... +0/-1     
Author:Eazy-E
2/19/2024 10:36:52 AM

Reply to: 2805687

Link to just one of your several FAA references on this topic, please?



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Msg ID: 2805710 FYI: the FAA has stated a number of times... +0/-2     
Author:Ahhh!
2/19/2024 1:58:59 PM

Reply to: 2805697

see link to FAA legal interp below which stares:

The subject of adding oil is often debated; however, we note that it is not an item included in pa1t 43, appendix A, paragraph (c), which lists items the FAA considers to be preventive maintenance. Accordingly, while it may be prudent to include in the maintenance log the adding of oil, including the quantity added, doing so is not required by the regulations 

https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/faa_migrate/interps/2016/Hochberg_2016_Legal_Interpretation.pdf



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Msg ID: 2805712 Except, they didn't seem to explain the "Lubrication" part of the regulatio +1/-1     
Author:Oil is a lubrication! And, ....
2/19/2024 2:56:55 PM

Reply to: 2805710

... "servicing" is a maintenance function.   When the FAA addresses those matters, then their interp has some real merit.   However, this is limited to Part 91, as stated in the letter. 

 



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Msg ID: 2805714 Except, they didn't seem to explain the "Lubrication" part of the regulatio +0/-1     
Author:Ahhh!
2/19/2024 3:12:29 PM

Reply to: 2805712

Part 135 9 or less passenger operations follows part 91 and part 43 for maintenance records requirements..



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Msg ID: 2805720 Not those with AAIPs! (NT) +0/-1     
Author:Anonymous
2/19/2024 3:53:01 PM

Reply to: 2805714


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Msg ID: 2805721 And also with FAR 135.421 +0/-1     
Author:among a few others.
2/19/2024 4:44:24 PM

Reply to: 2805714

Part 135 operators who have aircraft with seating of 9 or less must also follow this FAR, which describes maintenance requirements.  Note, it's maintenance to follow the "maintenance program" for an engine.  So, if the manufacturers recommended maintenance program tells you how to maintain the engine oil, it is a maintenance function.   Maintenance must be documented IAW FAR 43!

 

§ 135.421 Additional maintenance requirements.

(a) Each certificate holder who operates an aircraft type certificated for a passenger seating configuration, excluding any pilot seat, of nine seats or less, must comply with the manufacturer's recommended maintenance programs, or a program approved by the Administrator, for each aircraft engine, propeller, rotor, and each item of emergency equipment required by this chapter.

(b) For the purpose of this section, a manufacturer's maintenance program is one which is contained in the maintenance manual or maintenance instructions set forth by the manufacturer as required by this chapter for the aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, rotor or item of emergency equipment.

(c) For each single engine aircraft to be used in passenger-carrying IFR operations, each certificate holder must incorporate into its maintenance program either:

(1) The manufacturer's recommended engine trend monitoring program, which includes an oil analysis, if appropriate, or

(2) An FAA approved engine trend monitoring program that includes an oil analysis at each 100 hour interval or at the manufacturer's suggested interval, whichever is more frequent.

(d) For single engine aircraft to be used in passenger-carrying IFR operations, written maintenance instructions containing the methods, techniques, and practices necessary to maintain the equipment specified in §§ 135.105, and 135.163 (f) and (h)> are required.



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Msg ID: 2805719 Also, if it not an item listed as Preventive Maintenance, then it revert to +0/-2     
Author:being an item of Maintenance!
2/19/2024 3:51:57 PM

Reply to: 2805710

FAA has recognized "servicing" is maintenance!  But, they failed to address that in the letter you cited (likely, the attorneys are not that familiar with their maintenance technician's manuals). 

The FAA came up with the list of Preventative Maintenance so that Pilots and aircraft owners can perform minor maintenance on aircraft being operated under Part 91.  Pilots cannot perform any Preventative Maintenance on aircraft being operated under Part 135 unless specifically authorized in their OPSPECs.  That where you'll find HAA pilots specifically able to service the oxygen/LOX, install/remove named equipment, add oil to engines, etc.  If it's not in your OPSPECs, it isn't authorized.   But, it is still a maintenance function!

 

In the Aviation Maintenance Technician Handbook - General, pg 1-20

Servicing Aircraft
Servicing Aircraft Air/Nitrogen Oil & Fluids
Checking or servicing aircraft fluids is an important
maintenance function. Before servicing any aircraft, consult
the specific aircraft maintenance manual to determine the
proper type of servicing equipment and procedures. In
general, aircraft engine oil is checked with a dipstick or a sight
gauge. In general, aircraft engine oil is checked with a dipstick or a sight
gauge. There are markings on the stick or around the sight
gauge to determine the correct level. Reciprocating engines
are to be checked after the engine has been inactive, while
the turbine engine must be checked just after shutdown. Dry
sump oil systems tend to hide oil that has seeped from the oil
tank into the gearcase of the engine. This oil does not show up
on the dipstick until the engine has been started or motored.
If serviced before this oil is pumped back into the tank, the
engine overfills. Never overfill the oil tank. Oil foams as it
is circulated through the engine. The expansion space in the
oil tank allows for this foaming (oil mixing with air). Also
the correct type of oil must be used for the appropriate engine
being serviced.

How is one to know if the correct type of oil was used for the engine being serviced if it is not documented?  That's why oil is a maintenance action and falls under the lubrication listing of what Preventative Maintenance is!    Fuel, on the contrary, is not a lubrication or maintenance function!

 

Pilot's Handbook of Aeronatuical Knowledge, pg 7-16

Oil Systems


The engine oil system performs several important functions:
Lubrication of the engine’s moving parts
• Cooling of the engine by reducing friction
• Removing heat from the cylinders
• Providing a seal between the cylinder walls and pistons
• Carrying away contaminants

 

Appendix A to FAR 43:

(c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:

(6) Lubrication not requiring disassembly other than removal of nonstructural items such as cover plates, cowlings, and fairings.

 

https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2018/Aug/First_Issue.pdf

Does your aircraft have a set of Manufacturer's Maintenance Manual and/or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness (ICAs) that tell the maintenance folks how to "service" the aircraft oil? 

A manufacturer is required under §21.50(b)
to prepare a complete set of ICAs in
accordance with (IAW) the applicable certification
standard for the product (14 CFR parts 23, 25, 27,
29, 33, 35) that is acceptable to the Federal
Aviation Administration (FAA). The purpose of the
ICAs are to enable persons authorized by the FAA
to maintain the continued airworthiness of the
product and approve the product for return to
service. The manufacturer is also required to
furnish the ICA to each owner of the product and
then make it available to persons requiring its use.
This is how the certification rules interface with the
continued airworthiness rules of part 43 and 14
CFR part 91. In addition, as part of the ICAs, the
manufacturer is required to provide airworthiness
limitations (AWL). The FAA-approved Airworthiness
Limitation Section (ALS) is required to be separate
and distinct from the remainder of the FAA-
accepted ICA document. All of the certification
standards (e.g., parts 23, 25, 33, 35) require ICAs to
have an ALS that states the following: “The
Airworthiness Limitations section is FAA approved
and specifies maintenance required under §§ 43.16
and 91.403 of Title 14 of the Code of Federal
Regulations unless an alternative program has
been FAA approved.”



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Msg ID: 2805724 Also, if it not an item listed as Preventive Maintenance, then it revert to +0/-1     
Author:moron
2/19/2024 9:44:17 PM

Reply to: 2805719

If you don't record rate of consumption, then you should never have to replace the engine for having a faulty oil seal.



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Msg ID: 2805726 Are you suggesting not to document the consumption (NT) +0/-1     
Author:so you don't have to fix it?
2/19/2024 11:10:55 PM

Reply to: 2805724


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Msg ID: 2805744 Are you suggesting not to document the consumption  +0/-1     
Author:Anonymous
2/20/2024 10:19:43 AM

Reply to: 2805726

The idea is to keep from breathing carbon monoxide when the heater is on.  If you don't record usage, how will you know the seal is bad ?



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Msg ID: 2805746 OK, I agree. Adding any oil to the aircraft is to maintain it.  +0/-1     
Author:It is a maintenance function and
2/20/2024 10:37:29 AM

Reply to: 2805744

needs to be documented!  It is a lubrication!



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Msg ID: 2805784 When it starts streaking down the tail (NT) +1/-1     
Author:boom then you have an issue
2/21/2024 8:09:38 AM

Reply to: 2805626


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