Msg ID:
2805626 |
Turbine engine Oil consumption +0/-5
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Author:Anonymous
2/18/2024 12:16:16 PM
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Does it get logged ? What's acceptable before you get carbon Monoxide poisioning ? |
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Msg ID:
2805628 |
Turbine engine Oil consumption +4/-1
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Author:Retired
2/18/2024 12:25:48 PM
Reply to: 2805626
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We don't have a CO detector in the cabin so; there's no oil being burned. |
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Msg ID:
2805633 |
You are required to log oil added. (NT) +0/-1
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Author:see FARs 43.5(a) & 43.9
2/18/2024 1:02:00 PM
Reply to: 2805626
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Msg ID:
2805635 |
You are required to log oil added. +6/-1
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Author:Ahhh!
2/18/2024 1:14:58 PM
Reply to: 2805633
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Oil consumption Limits are in the engine maintenance manual. Adding oil is considered servicing, not maintenance. Unless there is a exhaust leak into the cabin, CO issues unlikely...
Let's move on to the next random thought. |
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Msg ID:
2805638 |
Adding oil is a preventive maintenance item +0/-1
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Author:(since it is not meant to be consumed)
2/18/2024 1:25:45 PM
Reply to: 2805635
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see Appendix A to FAR 43(c)(6) |
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Msg ID:
2805640 |
Adding oil is a preventive maintenance item +2/-1
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Author:Ahhh!
2/18/2024 1:37:48 PM
Reply to: 2805638
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It's servicing...
b. Preventive Maintenance. Section 1.1, defines preventive maintenance as “simple or minor preservation operations and the replacement of small standard parts not involving complex assembly operations.”
Do you log fuel added in the maintenance log? |
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Msg ID:
2805651 |
Is Oil a lubrication? Or a preservation? +3/-2
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Author:Fuel is fuel!
2/18/2024 2:53:37 PM
Reply to: 2805640
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Your arguement is "do you log adding fuel"? Fuel is not lubricant! Oil is a lubricant. Lubricants are maintained to prevent engine failure. If the engine oil is low, it the in an airworthy condition?? What is the planned consumption rate of engine oil in a flight? Do you have to report it on your flight plan "Oil Endurance in Hours and Minutes"? No, because it is not expected to be consumed, like fuel is!
You gave the 1.1 general definition, but Appendix A, (c)(6) specifically says "lubrication" is a preventative maintenance.
If the transmission oil is low, do you have to write it up? T/R gearbox? Rotor Brake fluid??
If it's not preventative maintenance, you are saying ANYONE can do it, including the 16 kid who drives up on his skateboard. "Hey kid, fill up that transmission for me, will ya?"
Maybe in a Part 91 aircraft, but this is a for-hire commerical operation under Part 135, which prohibits preventative maintenance from being performed by just anyone. If it is not even preventative maintenance, such person can service your commerical operation aircraft.
If your engine has a oil consumption limitation, the ONLY way you can show you meet that is by documenting the oil you add to the system each and every time. I have yet to see a fuel consumption limitation.
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Msg ID:
2805639 |
How do you know if you're over or under the limit? (NT) +1/-1
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Author:If you don't document it in the log?
2/18/2024 1:28:14 PM
Reply to: 2805635
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Msg ID:
2805642 |
How do you know if you're over or under the limit? +0/-1
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Author:Ahhh!
2/18/2024 1:41:36 PM
Reply to: 2805639
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If you are adding oil more often than normal, write it up as a descrepancy.. |
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Msg ID:
2805653 |
What's "normal" if you have no log to determine it? How do you know 8 qts +0/-2
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Author:havn't been already added this week?
2/18/2024 2:55:12 PM
Reply to: 2805642
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by another person if it is not documented? |
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Msg ID:
2805637 |
Turbine engine Oil consumption (NT) +1/-2
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Author:dude, what have you've been smoking
2/18/2024 1:23:04 PM
Reply to: 2805626
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Msg ID:
2805654 |
Turbine engine Oil consumption +1/-1
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Author:and
2/18/2024 3:03:26 PM
Reply to: 2805637
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If what you are smoking is turbine oil, get a CO2 detector.
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Msg ID:
2805655 |
Turbine engine Oil consumption +1/-1
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Author:youcan be signed off
2/18/2024 3:20:18 PM
Reply to: 2805654
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to add oil and you have to make a logbook entry. |
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Msg ID:
2805658 |
Turbine engine Oil consumption +2/-1
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Author:Mech
2/18/2024 3:55:09 PM
Reply to: 2805626
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W T F? |
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Msg ID:
2805659 |
Turbine engine Oil consumption +0/-1
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Author:Answer
2/18/2024 5:16:37 PM
Reply to: 2805658
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You're right, pole vaulting over a mouse turd
AFM: servicing |
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Msg ID:
2805669 |
Servicing *is* maintenance! (NT) +0/-1
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Author:Mechanic's Handbook!
2/18/2024 6:30:57 PM
Reply to: 2805659
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Msg ID:
2805670 |
So, if it's just "servicing", you can have the nurse do it! (NT) +0/-1
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Author:And, you don't even need to supervise
2/18/2024 6:47:33 PM
Reply to: 2805659
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Msg ID:
2805672 |
So, if it's just "servicing", you can have the nurse do it! +0/-2
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Author:Retired
2/18/2024 9:24:21 PM
Reply to: 2805670
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Sounds like we have a non standard method of doing business. "Servicing or Maintenance" Call it what you want ? It doesn't matter what you call it. Please log it.
My mechanic was really good at adding oil. I never saw any write up, on any amount of oil added. He probably added a half a quart every four hours in a 407. Every time I ran the heater, I could smell the smoke, with the carcinogens in the synthetic oil, I was inhaling a boatload of poison.
I'm talking to the largest ems operator in the States, you safety types, Please put a CO detector in the cabin for me. Thanks . |
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Msg ID:
2805687 |
FYI: the FAA has stated a number of times... +0/-3
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Author:adding engine oil...
2/19/2024 7:29:00 AM
Reply to: 2805626
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is a preflight task and is not considered maintenance, ie., no Part 43 write up required. Same goes for refueling, cleaning windshield, etc. The guidance is out there. However, some operators require an entry but that is only an inhouse rule. |
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Msg ID:
2805688 |
So, adding oil to the tailrotor gearbox is a preflight task? (NT) +0/-1
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Author:Cool
2/19/2024 7:52:09 AM
Reply to: 2805687
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Msg ID:
2805702 |
I never log what.... +2/-1
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Author:Gordo
2/19/2024 11:12:24 AM
Reply to: 2805688
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I drink. I just drink till the bottle is all gone. |
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Msg ID:
2805697 |
FYI: the FAA has stated a number of times... +0/-1
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Author:Eazy-E
2/19/2024 10:36:52 AM
Reply to: 2805687
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Link to just one of your several FAA references on this topic, please? |
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Msg ID:
2805710 |
FYI: the FAA has stated a number of times... +0/-2
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Author:Ahhh!
2/19/2024 1:58:59 PM
Reply to: 2805697
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see link to FAA legal interp below which stares:
The subject of adding oil is often debated; however, we note that it is not an item included in pa1t 43, appendix A, paragraph (c), which lists items the FAA considers to be preventive maintenance. Accordingly, while it may be prudent to include in the maintenance log the adding of oil, including the quantity added, doing so is not required by the regulations
https://www.faa.gov/sites/faa.gov/files/faa_migrate/interps/2016/Hochberg_2016_Legal_Interpretation.pdf
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Msg ID:
2805712 |
Except, they didn't seem to explain the "Lubrication" part of the regulatio +1/-1
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Author:Oil is a lubrication! And, ....
2/19/2024 2:56:55 PM
Reply to: 2805710
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... "servicing" is a maintenance function. When the FAA addresses those matters, then their interp has some real merit. However, this is limited to Part 91, as stated in the letter.
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Msg ID:
2805714 |
Except, they didn't seem to explain the "Lubrication" part of the regulatio +0/-1
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Author:Ahhh!
2/19/2024 3:12:29 PM
Reply to: 2805712
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Part 135 9 or less passenger operations follows part 91 and part 43 for maintenance records requirements.. |
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Msg ID:
2805720 |
Not those with AAIPs! (NT) +0/-1
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Author:Anonymous
2/19/2024 3:53:01 PM
Reply to: 2805714
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Msg ID:
2805721 |
And also with FAR 135.421 +0/-1
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Author:among a few others.
2/19/2024 4:44:24 PM
Reply to: 2805714
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Part 135 operators who have aircraft with seating of 9 or less must also follow this FAR, which describes maintenance requirements. Note, it's maintenance to follow the "maintenance program" for an engine. So, if the manufacturers recommended maintenance program tells you how to maintain the engine oil, it is a maintenance function. Maintenance must be documented IAW FAR 43!
§ 135.421 Additional maintenance requirements.
(a) Each certificate holder who operates an aircraft type certificated for a passenger seating configuration, excluding any pilot seat, of nine seats or less, must comply with the manufacturer's recommended maintenance programs, or a program approved by the Administrator, for each aircraft engine, propeller, rotor, and each item of emergency equipment required by this chapter.
(b) For the purpose of this section, a manufacturer's maintenance program is one which is contained in the maintenance manual or maintenance instructions set forth by the manufacturer as required by this chapter for the aircraft, aircraft engine, propeller, rotor or item of emergency equipment.
(c) For each single engine aircraft to be used in passenger-carrying IFR operations, each certificate holder must incorporate into its maintenance program either:
(1) The manufacturer's recommended engine trend monitoring program, which includes an oil analysis, if appropriate, or
(2) An FAA approved engine trend monitoring program that includes an oil analysis at each 100 hour interval or at the manufacturer's suggested interval, whichever is more frequent.
(d) For single engine aircraft to be used in passenger-carrying IFR operations, written maintenance instructions containing the methods, techniques, and practices necessary to maintain the equipment specified in §§ 135.105, and 135.163 (f) and (h)> are required.
(e) No certificate holder may operate a single engine aircraft under IFR, carrying passengers, unless the certificate holder records and maintains in the engine maintenance records the results of each test, observation, and inspection required by the applicable engine trend monitoring program specified in (c) (1) and (2) of this section.
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Msg ID:
2805719 |
Also, if it not an item listed as Preventive Maintenance, then it revert to +0/-2
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Author:being an item of Maintenance!
2/19/2024 3:51:57 PM
Reply to: 2805710
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FAA has recognized "servicing" is maintenance! But, they failed to address that in the letter you cited (likely, the attorneys are not that familiar with their maintenance technician's manuals).
The FAA came up with the list of Preventative Maintenance so that Pilots and aircraft owners can perform minor maintenance on aircraft being operated under Part 91. Pilots cannot perform any Preventative Maintenance on aircraft being operated under Part 135 unless specifically authorized in their OPSPECs. That where you'll find HAA pilots specifically able to service the oxygen/LOX, install/remove named equipment, add oil to engines, etc. If it's not in your OPSPECs, it isn't authorized. But, it is still a maintenance function!
In the Aviation Maintenance Technician Handbook - General, pg 1-20
Servicing Aircraft Servicing Aircraft Air/Nitrogen Oil & Fluids Checking or servicing aircraft fluids is an important maintenance function. Before servicing any aircraft, consult the specific aircraft maintenance manual to determine the proper type of servicing equipment and procedures. In general, aircraft engine oil is checked with a dipstick or a sight gauge. In general, aircraft engine oil is checked with a dipstick or a sight gauge. There are markings on the stick or around the sight gauge to determine the correct level. Reciprocating engines are to be checked after the engine has been inactive, while the turbine engine must be checked just after shutdown. Dry sump oil systems tend to hide oil that has seeped from the oil tank into the gearcase of the engine. This oil does not show up on the dipstick until the engine has been started or motored. If serviced before this oil is pumped back into the tank, the engine overfills. Never overfill the oil tank. Oil foams as it is circulated through the engine. The expansion space in the oil tank allows for this foaming (oil mixing with air). Also the correct type of oil must be used for the appropriate engine being serviced.
How is one to know if the correct type of oil was used for the engine being serviced if it is not documented? That's why oil is a maintenance action and falls under the lubrication listing of what Preventative Maintenance is! Fuel, on the contrary, is not a lubrication or maintenance function!
Pilot's Handbook of Aeronatuical Knowledge, pg 7-16
Oil Systems
The engine oil system performs several important functions: • Lubrication of the engine’s moving parts • Cooling of the engine by reducing friction • Removing heat from the cylinders • Providing a seal between the cylinder walls and pistons • Carrying away contaminants
Appendix A to FAR 43:
(c) Preventive maintenance. Preventive maintenance is limited to the following work, provided it does not involve complex assembly operations:
(6) Lubrication not requiring disassembly other than removal of nonstructural items such as cover plates, cowlings, and fairings.
https://www.faasafety.gov/files/notices/2018/Aug/First_Issue.pdf
Does your aircraft have a set of Manufacturer's Maintenance Manual and/or Instructions for Continued Airworthiness (ICAs) that tell the maintenance folks how to "service" the aircraft oil?
A manufacturer is required under §21.50(b) to prepare a complete set of ICAs in accordance with (IAW) the applicable certification standard for the product (14 CFR parts 23, 25, 27, 29, 33, 35) that is acceptable to the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA). The purpose of the ICAs are to enable persons authorized by the FAA to maintain the continued airworthiness of the product and approve the product for return to service. The manufacturer is also required to furnish the ICA to each owner of the product and then make it available to persons requiring its use. This is how the certification rules interface with the continued airworthiness rules of part 43 and 14 CFR part 91. In addition, as part of the ICAs, the manufacturer is required to provide airworthiness limitations (AWL). The FAA-approved Airworthiness Limitation Section (ALS) is required to be separate and distinct from the remainder of the FAA- accepted ICA document. All of the certification standards (e.g., parts 23, 25, 33, 35) require ICAs to have an ALS that states the following: “The Airworthiness Limitations section is FAA approved and specifies maintenance required under §§ 43.16 and 91.403 of Title 14 of the Code of Federal Regulations unless an alternative program has been FAA approved.” |
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Msg ID:
2805724 |
Also, if it not an item listed as Preventive Maintenance, then it revert to +0/-1
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Author:moron
2/19/2024 9:44:17 PM
Reply to: 2805719
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If you don't record rate of consumption, then you should never have to replace the engine for having a faulty oil seal. |
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Msg ID:
2805726 |
Are you suggesting not to document the consumption (NT) +0/-1
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Author:so you don't have to fix it?
2/19/2024 11:10:55 PM
Reply to: 2805724
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Msg ID:
2805744 |
Are you suggesting not to document the consumption +0/-1
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Author:Anonymous
2/20/2024 10:19:43 AM
Reply to: 2805726
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The idea is to keep from breathing carbon monoxide when the heater is on. If you don't record usage, how will you know the seal is bad ? |
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Msg ID:
2805746 |
OK, I agree. Adding any oil to the aircraft is to maintain it. +0/-1
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Author:It is a maintenance function and
2/20/2024 10:37:29 AM
Reply to: 2805744
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needs to be documented! It is a lubrication! |
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Msg ID:
2805784 |
When it starts streaking down the tail (NT) +1/-1
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Author:boom then you have an issue
2/21/2024 8:09:38 AM
Reply to: 2805626
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