We have all heard of the 3 to Go - 1 to say No rule, where any member of the HAA team can decline a flight for weather etc. I like that rule and always abide by it. However sometimes when weather is above minimums and improving I've had a few nurses tell me weather is too bad to go. I then have to decline the flight for weather over the radio.

No body in management questions the wx call, the med crew go back to bed and no one is aware of why the flight was declined.

I saw a post on a different thread where one guy says he declines for the '3 to go, 1 to say no rule' over the radio when it is a med-crew call. Is this a company policy, or something you would consider using to hold the med-crew responsible?

a flight request, we are required to state the reason. Wx, duty day, mechanical issue, etc.

So, if the pilot has assessed the current/forecast weather conditions as acceptable, but is declining for wx anyway, what would you say is the reason for the decline?

Why are we hestitant to state the reason? The pilot is accountable for their aviation decisions, why shouldn't the medical crew be as well if they are going to be involved in that process?

I have done just about everything that can be done in a chopper over 40 years! 

The absolute worst was HAA! Too  many non-rated people telling you how to do your job! The best flying in my  opinion was ENG followed by offshore GOM!!

"I have done just about everything that can be done in a chopper over 40 years!"

Anybody that says that probably havent done much at all.

you let non-aviation people make your decisions for you.

Absolutely.  "Medical Personnel decline for weather"

Pilot can say he/she/it doesn't believe the forecast, May have to discuss, who cares, discuss away.  Med types reasoning is sometimes hilarious.  

Its more than 3 to go 1 to say no.....  OCC can decline your flight after you accept..   And the med crew dont alwyas go back to bed... The program I work in the crews will be requested to go by ground if a FW can not take it which is 90% of the time..  

AKA - "crew comfort"

Our WX turndowns sometimes turn into ground transports for the med crew as well.  More than once they've had a change of "comfort level" when faced with a long ground transport.  "Can you double-check the weather now?"

EVERYTHING you as a pilot are doing. 

If you say go,

a medic says no,

you leave them behind and

get a hotter murse.

you're doing, true

I would just say "I" decline for wx or "Med crew declines" for wx. That way the can see how often flights are canned by the med crew, especially near shift change. Wouldn't want to be late for our hospital or fire shift would we?

While being a mechanic for PHI Air Med in Texas many years ago I've been called in for "fake faults" by the pilot  several times to down the aircraft so the med crew can watch their favorite TV show uninterrupted.

When I immediately returned the aircraft back to service I received a call from the maintenance manager asking me if I wanted to keep my job, then says he's getting to much report about my bad attitude. After several more incidents like this I walked in one day and told them they were down permanently until they could get another mechanic because you can- TAKE THIS JOB AND SHOVE IT !!!

"30 to go, 1 to say no" is pretty much the standard in HEMS these days.  When the phone rings from above asking why the flight was declined, hand the phone to the one that declined it and go back to sleep.  If the email comes instead of the phone ringing, reply with the name of the person that declined the flight and cc them.  Then go back to sleep.  You will lose and lose big if you try to fight it.

it depends on program and company....I have never had a issue someone questioning me on a turn down...PHI Health was always a pain...depending on program, management would call the pilot and say "yeah that flight your turned down, whats up?   Not that I am questioning you, but the customer wanted to know".....Listen SMARTY Manager, when you call and ask, you are questioning weather....it is what it is.....

says he has never been questioned on weather then goes on to talk about being questioned on weather

paid attention you would see he said SOME PROGRAMS and companies....

get real. the guy posts nothing but non stop bullsh*t on here. 

Don't even bother the pilot with a flight request until all the other "stake holders" have given the thumbs-up.

me uph.   Three cheers for medical capability to make real aviation decisions.   NOW, when medical first decisions are in the offing let's make sure pilots get the first go.

me uph.   Three cheers for medical capability to make real aviation decisions.   NOW, when medical first decisions are in the offing let's make sure pilots get the first go.

request turndown brief note med crew turned down flight but not by personal name - let anyone else interested figure that one out.

Everybody gets what they deserve. Get a better job with a real life crew and not the AEL Duke boys.

ur day may well come about.

I learned to let my experiences guide me through these issues so let's take a moment to reflect on a few of my experiences related to weather turndowns.

First off, I've had more than one pilot leave a shift briefing after declaring that the weather was not flyable for the entire upcoming shift only to accept a flight request 5 minutes later...W-T-F happened to not-flyable?

Also, I can't begin to tell you the number of times that a pilot declared that weather was 'good-to-go' only to launch and turn back for below minimum weather conditions or to get stuck at the referring facility for hours because of poor weather...again, W-T-F was accomplighed here?

Let me also share that I had 2 separate pilots (over my 26 years in HEMS) leave because they were pi$$ed that the med crews "had too much power in aviation decisions" or "turned down way too many flight request due to weather"...both died in separate weather-related crashes within a year of leaving HEMS.  So much for their weather decision capabilities.  Maybe, just maybe, their aviation careers were were a little bit longer because of medical crew weather turndowns. 

Finally, I can't begin to tell you how many times we landed short of our destination (airport, hospital, or field) only to spend the night because weather closed in....another W-T-F moment.  I can, however, tell you how sickening it was to attend the memorial service for our HEMS crew after their aircraft crashed in (go figure) $-hitty weather...after the pilot convinced them that everything would be just fine.  The absolute worst part of that was having to remain quiet as this dumba-$-$ pilot was professed to be a 'hero' to his family during his eulogy...major W-T-F moment to say the least.

In closing, as long as pilots continue to destroy perfectly good aircraft and kill medical crew members in weather-related crashes, your argument has no merit.  Your attempts at bullying the medical crews by announcing over the radio that 'THEY' turned down the flight will get you nowhere.  Maybe it's time for you to move on where no-one will ever question your weather decision authority and you can share the same fate as the 2 previously mentioned pilots....after all, history does repeat itself!

Spoken like a true idiot.  Speak not of what you have no clue.  Continue on being a non-believer and you too will follow in the path of those who knew everything.  For the record, each of my examples are factual...please learn from them.

links?

Chew on ASN Occurrence # 68341 for starters

Sounds like a plain vanilla IIMC event. HEMS history is full of them. What am I missing? Maybe you're in the wrong business?

Where are the links for all these pilots who killed themselves after they left HEMS and didn't have super smart medics like you keeping them alive anymore?

Try ASN 175163...less than a year after leaving HEMS. Personally, I liked the guy and he had tons of experience, however it appears that he pushed it one too many times...tragic loss. Anyway Francis, the list goes on but why keep contesting the inevitable...we all know that the history of pilots and pi$$ poor weather decisions is extensive and will never go away.  Retraining, disciplinary actions and even the initiation of Operational Control oversight haven't fixed the issue...or the attitude.  If you aren't interested in learning from the mistakes of others, then carry on doing your thing....we'll just hold an ASN# for you too. Enough said.

If you went to crew and said well it "might be" good now, then you involved them and they said no, thats it.  If you looked and weather was good then its good to go.  Some flights, esp scene calls, it does no good to try and make it only to delay an ambulance from just going to the hospital.  Ususally a reason the crew says no and not to just get out of work.  Remember you're a team.  It works both ways.  Many things happen over the years, you may do something that is concerning to them, do you want an environment where the crew does a confidential safety report over something you could have talked through?  If its a frequent occurance with the same person, then talk it out.

Then you call your aviation operations officer on call and with them being in management and a company man they tell you to go so they can earn company revenues at the expense of peoples lives. As REACHs /GMR Motto goes along with Nike "Just do it!" And pray your stay alive.

Then you call your aviation operations officer on call and with them being in management and a company man they tell you to go so they can earn company revenues at the expense of peoples lives. As REACHs /GMR Motto goes along with Nike "Just do it!" And pray your stay alive.