Everyone has heard of LA County fire rescue. Don't hear much about the rest of the west and Mountain west

Every LE and FD is public use although the majority operate Part 91 with a few have a 135 cert.

he didn't ask that

CalFire, WADNR, SDFD,various Fish and Game  etc etc

What is wadnr 

Washington department of natural resources

 Nope. Not at all equal to 'professional' HAA  that charges stupid amounts. 135 for public 'vendors' came about from failed attempts to keep public helicopters from charging only DIRECT costs. So, we fly you to a medical facility and only get paid what it actually costs. So to HAA, it's a pain to be public and have to comply with 135 but we won the 135 battle so go rip someone else off.

 BTW... damn few of you hoist, HEC or will even try to land in a tight LZ like we do.

Not at all equal to 'professional' HAA  that charges stupid amounts

The charge "stupid" amounts because they  don't have the taxpayers funding the whole kit and caboddle for them, and then raking in gravy money from insurance companies over their already paid for operation!

UNFAIR COMPETITION!

...came about from failed attempts to keep public helicopters from charging only DIRECT costs.

They came about because back in the late 80's and early 90's, local governments were trying to share their resources from one to another, like in adjacent counties with shared interests.  Mosquito control was a big one.   They couldn't "charge" one county for the costs to use the aircraft in another under FAA rules, so these local governments lobbied to allow them to be given a commercial license so one county could recoup operating costs from another county.   Once they got the law changed in that regard, now the world was open for them to abuse this loophole and take over an entire region with mon0p0lu powers.   They fund their entire operation with TAX PAYER money, and then also "charge/bill" insurance companies on top of that.  That is not anything like how a legitimate certificate holder survives financially.

Unfair Competition!

 Well we don't fund our entire operations with tax payer money, hence the charging. We do provide a quicker response and more vercitile operations then HAA operators.  Law enforcement and fire are mostly on scene first so it makes sense that we transport people. It's all about saving lives, right? Golden hour and all that?

 What we don't do is silly hopital-to-hospital transfers so make your money there.

Well we don't fund our entire operations with tax payer money, hence the charging.

That's because your entire operation is a cash hog!  You are not operating cheaply, because you have a taxpayer funded supply of cash.   Plus, you don't pay for any of your facilities, it's all tax funded.  And, you have access to federal government surplus, that normal commercial businesses don't (surplus aircraft, surplus GSE, surplus grants, civil servant benefits, municiple courts and DA's to act as "dept collectors", etc.)   There is NOTHING about your operation that is cost efficient!

Unfair Competition!

Law enforcement and fire are mostly on scene first so it makes sense that we transport people.

That's because you have a mon0p0ly on the calls.  You are your own EMS authority!   No problem if you are operating a strict public aircraft operation.   But, you use public aircraft to compete against commercial operators.

Unfair Competition!

It's all about saving lives, right? Golden hour and all that?

Yet, you seem to forget you CHARGE for that while being the mon0p0py authority.  If savings lives is what's most important to you, then you wouldn't bill for it since TAXPAYERS already fund you whole operation.   You can fly zero patients but still are raking in the taxpayer money to cover your operating costs.   The billing is for profit; its for a revenue generating over and above your tax collection.

UNFAIR COMPETITION!

 It's not a compitition. We don't care to make money. Actually in my state it's illegal to profit.  What we don't want is to waste time getting people from rescued to hospital care.

 Explain the logic of a public aircraft rescue, say a hoist in a remote canyon, then landing to turn over a patient to civilian for hire medical helicopters.

I say unfair really is to not provide timely transport to critically hurt people.

You'll never see us moving your hospital to hospital people which is 99% of HAA work.

You can provide timely transport to critically urt people as a public aircraft!

Instead, you have created a predatory mon0p0ly power, where you control all of the air commerce in your area.   Not a problem until you also collect compensation as a for hire operator!

Unfair Competition!

The logic of public aircraft rescue...   tax payer funds the helicoper (aircraft) who does the service as a public interest, and DOES NOT charge any compensation (since it gets its funding from taxpayers)!

And, we do see you public operators moving people hospital to hospital all the time, and charging a fee for it (i.e., for compensation)!  

Unfair competition!

Actually in my state it's illegal to profit.  What we don't want is to waste time getting people from rescued to hospital care.

If you collect ANY compensation from the operation, you are profiting, since taxpayers fund your operation and anything you collect above it is PURE GRAVY

 You clearly don't understand how a LE helicopter operation or any manner of the depart. We do not make money!  Ultimately we lose every year. Public aircraft? Yes. We comply with everything 135 requires and then some.

 I can only speak for my state to say we never move people from hospital to hospital. This is a service our sheriff does not allow. People actually die because HAA  is OOS  for whatever; often. But we do not compete.

 Now then, zero HAA operators can hoist, HEC or otherwise rescue within 200 miles. We do. And we are busy.

 It's never competition just service which is what it's about right? Lives not lost not money?

 Taxpayer money isn't an open check. Here most revenue goes to damn near everything but LE. 

You comply with 135 because it is a SAFETY requirement.   But, you also claim the ECONOMIC benefit of being a commercial operator when you really are a public operator.   You are competing against commerical operators in air ambulance air commerce with a huge UNFAIR COMPETATIVE ADVANTANGE!

How can it be an unfair competative advantage, you might be wondering?   Well, you are a commercial operator, who has NO COMPETITION because you have MON0P0LY power over your air commerce.  There is no competition!   You won't allow it.   Yet, you pretend to be a commercial operator collecting compensation for hire (air ambulance services).

"Taxpayer money isn't an open check", you boast.   And, none of your legitimate commerical operators have access to that recource!   Only you, the public operator! 

 We comply with 135 not as safety. We do it to document training, maint. requirements, and lots of FAA requirements the basic civ operators don't. Being 135 vs public use doesn't change maint, training or operations. We fly safe regardless.

 Unfair competitive advantage? Basic operating cost of a 407 is the same for us. If we deliver a hurt person for 90% less than civilian operators that isn't an advantage. Hurt person receives care quicker which is what it's about right?  Hurt person doesn't care really.

seems what the rub is surrounded public rescue is delivering hurt people timely vs inflated civ delivery not timely for drastically inflated prices.

 Now then, as a pilot does it even make a difference? 

seems what the rub is surrounded public rescue is delivering hurt people timely vs inflated civ delivery not timely for drastically inflated prices.

If you factor in all the TAX MONEY it takes for you to deliver a hurt patient to the hospital, you actually see drastically inflated prices!

 It's never competition just service which is what it's about right? Lives not lost not money?

But, you are saying that as you benefit from actually GETTING the tax payer money.   If your civilian HAA competator got the same access to free taxpayer money, then you might have an arguement.

Can you do what you do without the billing you do as a Part 135 operator?   Becasue, the civilian Part 135 operator cannot compete against you having that cash flow and other perks from taxpayers (access to lands, facilities, law enforcement, courts, insurance, labor benefits, etc, etc).   You claim you are doing it for less to the patient, but really that is not truthful, since you collect from the taxpayer (potential patient) all the costs up front, regardless if they need you are not.

The fact you take home a pay check is proof you make money.  It's either tax payer funded or revenue gained through sales.  Sales such as seized property, land, timber, or other associated "costs" you bill the citizen.  Sometimes better to keep quiet than to remove all doubt.  

It is unfair competition when a certificate holder has a HUGE economic advantage over the rest of the players due to its PUBLIC (taxpayer funded) enterprise

You market it as if "we can do it cheaper" when you really don't do it cheaper!   Your whole public operation costs the tax payers WAY more then any commercial operator does!

When a commercial operator doesn't fly a patient, it costs the tax payers NOTHING.   Whey you don't fly a patient, it costs the tax payers the costs of your entire operation!  Becaue they fund it regardless if they use it!  And, then, you bill insurance on top of that fully funded operations, to add gravy on top.

UNFAIR COMPETITION!

 Ya. You got it right.  We operate a 407 at around $2000 and hour. HAA in our area about $25,000 an hour. Same helcopter. Same staffing. 

 And the basic 135 guy down the ramp charges and $3500 to do lift work in a 407

How does an commercial HAA tap into that cash flow?

UNFAIR COMPETITION

PG&E only operates the Hawks, and they have a 133 for that. All other aircraft on property are 135 contract vendors.

Roger so California plus wadr 

I don't understand what you want? Arizona DPS, Utah DPS, Washington SP, Washington DNR, Montana DNR, Basically any state org that has air assets would be public use...

In the west

arizona DPS, Phoenix PD, Pimal County, Utah State Police, las Vega metro, sdfd, sdpd, La city fire, La city police, La sheriff, Ventura county, riverside county, Orange County, Santa barbara coubut, CHp, kern county, snimoshish county, cal Fire, king county, 

just to name a few

Thanks