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Msg ID: 2788169 Just my normal caustic self +3/-3     
Author:oldNtired
7/15/2023 5:03:11 PM

On JH home page it has a video of the Red Bull Helicopter doing acrobatics, rolls and loops and a short,(very) short image of inverted flight giving the impression of sustained inverted flight.  Impression given: helicopters can fly inverted just like an airplane !  No explanation of rotor systems or types of rotor systems i.e. ridged, articulated, tettering etc . No mention of positive and negative G loadings, speeds or explanations of the maneuvers.  

It was an interesting video but my gripe is, all of the responses from the viewers of the video give the impression that the public thinks any helicopter, any place, any time can fly fully aerobatic maneuvers.  Any bets on when a Robbie student decides an R22 can fly inverted and decides to give it a try.  My real gripe is in talking to new primary students (not just military) is they are not being taught enough real world advanced rotor dynamics and differences.  Fly safe and remember the big blades belong on top.



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Msg ID: 2788172 Just my normal caustic self +4/-0     
Author:Don’t do dumb stuff.
7/15/2023 5:20:59 PM

Reply to: 2788169

Nuff said. Natural selection fix the rest 



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Msg ID: 2788175 Just my normal caustic self +5/-2     
Author:Iagree
7/15/2023 6:34:10 PM

Reply to: 2788172

The problem lies with the training system itself. Person gets pruvate cert. Then CFI.  You now have a person with basic knowledge and No experience tracking someone with no knowledge and no experience.  Yet we expect qualified pilots at the end.  May pass a check ride but certainly not capable.  



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Msg ID: 2788178 Just my normal caustic self +0/-3     
Author:SFar 73
7/15/2023 7:39:49 PM

Reply to: 2788169

Before you can touch the controls of a Robinson R22/R44 you have to have documented training of among other things Low G / Mast bumping and more. Look up SFar 73.

 

https://www.helicoptertrainingvideos.com/2021/03/sfar-73-for-r22-r44-helicopters-explained/

 



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Msg ID: 2788182 Just my normal caustic self +6/-2     
Author:Gee
7/15/2023 8:49:01 PM

Reply to: 2788178

That's great. What experience you have. How on the hell is a person with less than 200 hours be qualified to teach?  If you think a CFI course and compliance with the SFAR is adequate to be teaching I must disagree.  This system is why we are having accidents caused be pilots that have no background of experience to fall baxk on.  One of the most dangerous pilots in the world is the 509 hour roger ramjet who knows it all. 10 years as a training captain/check airman for a 135 operator. I was amazed by some of the stuff I saw  b



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Msg ID: 2788185 Just my normal caustic self +6/-1     
Author:oldNtired
7/15/2023 11:16:09 PM

Reply to: 2788182

Gee, I agree with you .  The experience in the industry is declining. Maybe we failed to pass on our knowledge.  As I got older, it seemed that those coming up didn't seem to care.  I think it partly generational because the Viet Nam era pilots had the experience pushed down there throats in a very short time.  In part I think it is also just the nature of people that want to fly helicopters.  There is really nothing to compare it too. If your were an experienced IP, I would guess you pretty well had a student figured out in personality, ability and attitude in the first flight.  In the military when you did the tour a lot of guys came back to the training command but most had close to a 1000 hrs. and had maybe seen a rotor head leave an aircraft because of mast bumping or at least the aftermath of it and so had something to pass on.

Too walk out of a checkride and start teaching at the very facility you trained with is the fault of the industry. The young guys have to get the experience somewhere and I argue that the training should be more expansive and more of it.  The ONLY thing I can commend Robinson for is their increased training to fly their equipment but how many people died to get in place.

 Everyone getting a participation trophy after the game didn't help the person or the industry.  It will always be about the dollar. Its a tough industry and probably not for everybody.  You will lose friends and loved ones.  Money will be average with some exceptions.  Family is a challenge but I loved the job.



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Msg ID: 2788237 Just my normal caustic self +0/-1     
Author:Oh
7/16/2023 10:52:37 PM

Reply to: 2788178

dearie me, 4000 hours of Huey time the same teeter rotor system and no problems.  Go figure.



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Msg ID: 2788271 Just my normal caustic self +0/-0     
Author:oldNtired
7/17/2023 10:45:34 AM

Reply to: 2788237

Now that you have pounded yourself on the chest and have let us all know about your massive amounts of Huey time perhaps you might take a reading comprehension course.  I was trying to point out that the different rotor systems have different limitations.  Take your Huey.  Do a hard cyclic climb and go negative at the top.  See what happens.  Your the perfect example of what I was trying to point out



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Msg ID: 2788297 Just my normal caustic self +0/-0     
Author:anony
7/17/2023 2:28:09 PM

Reply to: 2788271

Did the same thing as you Gee for a 135 company in the northeast and can report the same findings.  So much variation is in the flight school these pilots came out of, night and day experiences.  As much as I would love to see flight instruction be a more respectable job for the experienced pilot it just doesnt happen here in the USA.  Getting paid at the time $15hr to teach in R22's was something you would never get a 3000hr pilot to come back to. Sometimes you have a flight school where the owner still teaches so you can have a more experienced CFI but its unfortunately rare.  

First day of ground school at my company and you could immediately pickout the part 61 vs part 141 flight school pilots and beyond that, the ones who taught at a 61 or 141 to get to 1000hr.  Then those who left after getting their commerical and went to fly tours at Myrtle Beach and did nothing but that to get to 1000hrs.  

The flight school certainly has an effect on the pilots they turn out, we almost hired exclusively from one flight school because they consistantly put out quality pilots that were fast learners and fit well into the NYC area.  That flight school was started by a former Vietnam pilot who also owned the airport and was the DPE for 30 years.  School then sold to a utility pilot in 500's and Huey's who would have the students trained to do ground crew work during external load jobs.  The same DPE was doing almost all private, Comm and CFI check rides up till a few years ago.  The IFR DPE was former military and also flew 76's IFR daily, both of them made sure to pass down real world standards above the PTS.  The owner of the school also did special courses intended to pass down knowledge that the average 200CFI would not know of regarding commerical operations and students were not allowed to even begin teaching as a CFI at the school unless they had gone through those courses.  

All that combined with it being Part 141 and having a few high time CFI's who stuck around to continue to pass the knowledge down was key.  We had commercial operators in the area who would come in once a month to talk to everyone and again pass down that knowledge to the CFI's and students, sometime is was the local HAA, corporate, factory test pilots etc.  

On the flip side I've seen flight schools that were only part 61, only 2 instructors that barely had 200hrs, and none of the above.  No supervision, no ground school, just go out and do "cool stuff" and they pass their checkride and continue passing nothing but the bare minimums downhill.  Mind you this isnt a knock against part 61 outright, I've seen schools that while they are 61 they behave like 141 and do great things.  Just a general observation after 80+ 1000hr pilots came through our doors in a few short years.



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