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Msg ID: 2783475 Kaman KMAX +1/-1     
Author:500 guy
5/22/2023 9:29:47 AM

Holy crap! Are these things really that dangerous? According to this article they've had three similar accidents and they still don't know how to fix the problem. 

https://verticalmag.com/news/servo-flap-failure-preceded-fatal-k-max-crash/ 



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Msg ID: 2783479 Kaman KMAX +11/-1     
Author:Kmax guy
5/22/2023 10:26:38 AM

Reply to: 2783475

Yes and no. The blades are incredibly strong but they look like they were made by a 6th grade woodworking class and painted by a blind kid. If you get a chance to check one out up close ask to see the blades. Based on everything else flying it's alarming when you see the flap pocket is just pro sealed on and painted over and there are bolts through the blades. They look straight out of the scrap heap with all the imperfections. The flaps are pretty flimsy looking. Everyone i've ever seen has cracks in the paint and it's very hard to tell what is superficial paint and what goes deeper until it's advanced. Note it and watch it.
keep in mind the blades and some other parts are in a pool. You send your blades in and get a different set that has been "overhauled" who knows what operator had them before you and if they abused them or gently tucked them in each night. Kaman isn't really known for their quality control. Each pair of blades and their flaps are mated for life. You cannot simply replace one blade or one flap. You ding a flap or a blade and that whole side is getting pulled. 



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Msg ID: 2783641 Kaman KMAX +0/-1     
Author:Another K-Max Guy
5/24/2023 4:28:55 PM

Reply to: 2783479

There are several flap failures that I know of that have been survived over the years.  It kind of depends on how much collective you have in when it happens.  At high collective settings when the flap goes away the blade pitches violently down and can strike the other blade.  

However, I'm very curious about the determination of flap failure.  If you read the report closely you will note that no one from the FAA or NTSB actually visited the crash site.  It makes one wonder.....



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Msg ID: 2783484 Kaman KMAX +0/-8     
Author:Just stay
5/22/2023 10:53:25 AM

Reply to: 2783475

In your 500 princess, the dolphin doesn't want you anyway.



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Msg ID: 2783529 Kaman KMAX +0/-1     
Author:Look
5/22/2023 4:28:54 PM

Reply to: 2783484

At all the butthurt 500 drivers 



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Msg ID: 2783547 Kaman KMAX +0/-0     
Author:500guy
5/22/2023 8:30:10 PM

Reply to: 2783475

I knew a high time Kmax driver tbat had a servo flap failure. He claimed he was the only one to ever survive it. If I recall correctly, he said he had it in forward flight and aft cyclic lead to an aggressive left role...so he landed it without any aft cyclic.



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Msg ID: 2783555 Kaman KMAX +0/-4     
Author:Really?
5/22/2023 9:41:43 PM

Reply to: 2783547

I've heard of 4 kmax drivers all say they've survived a flap issue. Out of those 4, there is only 1 that I believe. 



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Msg ID: 2783557 Kaman KMAX +0/-1     
Author:yeah them kmax drivers
5/22/2023 10:32:46 PM

Reply to: 2783555

always lying about that



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Msg ID: 2783577 Kaman KMAX +2/-0     
Author:gringo
5/23/2023 10:41:14 AM

Reply to: 2783557

I don't think you could control the machine with one servo flap missing. Between being pretty out of balance, the flap also controls the flat pitch/auto RPM setting, one might be able to lower the collective and find the spot where all the blades be somewhat equal, but changing collective settings causes the aircraft to pitch quite a bit because of the rotors are angled away from the fuselage to the sides and thanks to gyroscopic precession the thing pitches fore/aft.



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Msg ID: 2783582 Kaman KMAX +0/-0     
Author:Kmax
5/23/2023 1:40:14 PM

Reply to: 2783577

I know of at least two flap failures where the aircraft was landed successfully. One was a previous incident by the deceased pilot in the above crash. 

the Kmax is in part very pitchy with collective in forward flight because the horizontal is linked to it. The whole assembly moves and it's not subtle.



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Msg ID: 2783624 how does loss of a flaperon make the blades mesh?? (NT) +0/-1     
Author:Quizzical
5/24/2023 10:52:16 AM

Reply to: 2783475


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Msg ID: 2783643 how does loss of a flaperon make the blades mesh?? +0/-1     
Author:you answered
5/24/2023 5:15:13 PM

Reply to: 2783624

your own question



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Msg ID: 2783652 loss of flaperon does not change blade spacing +0/-0     
Author:The Enquizzator
5/24/2023 7:46:12 PM

Reply to: 2783643

Presumedly and I've never seen a Kmax in person, the rotors are geared so they dont hit each other, losing the flaperon would cause the blade to go to some nominal pitch setting.Then how do the separate rotor systems mesh? Just axing



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Msg ID: 2783659 loss of flaperon does not change blade spacing +2/-0     
Author:gringo
5/24/2023 11:28:03 PM

Reply to: 2783652

excessive flapping can cause blades from one rotor hit the other rotorhead, there's a note in the RFM to avoid "cross controlling" (out of trim flight) usually it only causes the rotor blade to get gouges on the bottom. So I can see that losing one flap could cause severe  flapping and who knows what kind of pilot input was made during the oh crap moment. 

 



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