A - Flight Nurse

B - Pilot In Command

C - Flight Medic

Your ex-wife? 

If they say 'No, I logically tell them why we should go, if able. If they still say 'No' we go back to bed or whatever and don't give it another thought. I always document the reason for flight declines should questions be asked later. More often than not no questions are asked, but one time I was asked about a turndown three weeks after it happened and was happy I had notes to refer to. 

If your company doesnt back you, then you are working for the wrong group. 

If one of the three says no, the answer is no.

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

As to being able to make the flight safel, yes. As to saying we are going on this flight, no.

Remember you are a team/crew. The door was opened long ago to make it easy for one to decline a flight for nearly any reason. So people will. If the flight is doable and the pic says let's go, but the nurse says they are not comfortable and says no. You decline the flight for Medcrew and keep notes as another has suggested.

Remember, there will always be another flight.

so, if the pic says GO, he's the final authority?

Yes. The regulation says exactly that. Your contract may say otherwise and you, an employee, must abide by your employer's policy, but- the PIC is the final authority.

old subject.  Just play nice and keep the med crews happy.  They have no authority but if they want to RTB or divert or land or whatever it is the pilot choice to do the safe thing.  Talk about it on the ground.

How about all of you medcal personnel get together and learn how to be better medical staff.  You could use it. stay in your lane. 

(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

There it is, the regulation assigning responsibility and authority. A passenger may refuse to board, may have authority to terminate flight activity, but the PIC is by law and reason the person responsible, and is "... the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft."

There you go. End of discussion as that is spot on.

What has the industry become?

evenif occ says yes, only the PIC can make it happen. some companies don't even have an occ, chief

Perfect answer!  So why don't you just get in the aircraft and fly to your destination scene or hospital WITHOUT the medical team...that'll show 'em!  And you'll be able to make your point, however stupid you end up looking doing so.

Give up the cowboy mentality cause it's not all about you, Roy.  We really hate attending those memorial services caused by arrogance, but we'll pretend you were the best pilot since Chuck Yeager as they lower your remains into the ground for the last time.

only one has the authority. Take a guess bro

Maybe all you medical types should start your own page called just medical. Maybe you can help each other get better at your profession. 

EMS is no diferent than any 135 charter operation. For all the talk of the medical folks being crew, baloney. They are passengers as far as flight goes. If I tell passengers I believe it is safe to fly and they don't want to fly so be it, we don't fly. If I say it's not safe to fly, we don't fly, period, no debate. I can't and won't try to force people to do anything they think is unsafe. If there are med personnel that commonly refuse to fly when I think it's safe that's their employers problem.

I've approached fliying passengers this way for 40 years and haven't heard any complaints.

 IS 135 when you have people that aren't paid by the A/C Operator, they're customers!

IS 135 when you have people that aren't paid by the A/C Operator, they're customers!

And passengers. But, some operators require that customer/passengers have a veto on operations- they can't (ordinarily) make the flight happen but they can stop a flight operation based on company policy.

This can be a serious problem for the PIC when a particular crew objects to certain flights based on other than operational issues... say, desiring a better nights' sleep. Good management can see an obvious pattern when that is so, but it's a good idea for a pilot to keep a record of circumstances that result in lost flights. I'm not going to identify the pilot, crew or program, but a certain crew combination liked an uninterrupted night for extra-curricular activity... 

Had another tell me "just land it and don't worry about if I'm in my seat or not.  I don't work for you, you work for me."   And he was serious, as in, we can easily find another pilot to work here if you want to make a big deal about it!

 "just land it and don't worry about if I'm in my seat or not.  I don't work for you, you work for me." 

where else would they be? ayfkm bro

if one of the crew says NO, then why try and justify it?  Its on them to explain it Not you....I have gotten in the attitude to not care to even try and argue to justify a flight....If one says no, then move on...Let them justify or explain to their bosses if asked WHY 

it's you first day.

If the pilots says go and a med crew says no, no flight. So it is three to go.

not sure how it's possible to be confused by this but here we are

And guess what, no more pilot

sounds fascinating bro

I'm not comfortable with it!

that would be like so cool if you said that. you would totally own them and that would be like so awesome 

It doesn't matter if you, the pilot says it's good to go.  If one of the medically trained passengers decides they're "not comfortable", screw it.  Go back to your TV show, movie, or whatever you were doing before the request came in.  I get paid whether I fly or not.  It isn't worth the argument.  Some of these people will "safety" themselves right out of a job at some point.  

who would be dumb enough to argue with a med crew that says no? It completely undermines the whole concept. YOU will be the one looking for a job.

but not if I say no, cap

complicated bro. the PIC doesn't have the authority to make people get on an aircraft. get it now.

he is welcome to take off. med crew are not saying the flight can't happen, it's just that they won't be on it. get it now. lol you retard

and all the GO's are meaningless without the PIC's "GO". 

So we're kinda back to "1 to say NO"

Good luck in middle management.

how confusing this is for you bro lol

you can make people get on an aircraft or even mean you can initiate a flight. that's why you're so terribly confused and upset about all this.

So we're kinda back to "who has the final authority to say GO"?   It's not the PIC!

reduce accidents but to give the med crew an out if they don't want to fly. are all of you this stupid because this is the most simple thing in the world but some of you dumb f**kers just cannot figure this out.

same as pilots

the flight can happen, just like any other flight. they just choose not to be on it. 

you can't force somebody onto an aircraft by threatening their job. that's the whole idea. it works as designed. 99% of the time there is no issue. If they don't want to go, that's fine with me. so really you're chasing a windmill on this one bro

IOWs, they have final authority to say go also!   It's not that hard to understand.   If you need me to say GO, and I don't, my decision is a final authority since it is equal to all authority!

got another nurse. see, no operational control. the flight still happens.

over themselves, not the flight itself. what you are saying is illogical. the FAA would step in if what you're saying we're true. Its not bro. Give it up.

say you're on an oil platform and they want you to take a mechanic to a nearby platform to fix something. he refuses to get on the helicopter for whatever reason. is the mechanic exercising operational control? nope, he just won't get on the helicopter. same as the med crew.

On the EMS flight, it was.   It was a flight being requested not by the Nurse/Medic, but by a customer looking for an EMS helicopter to perform an air ambulance flight, which was cancelled because a medical crewmember had the final authority here say NO.  

The other situation was a private customer looking to move an employee of a that private customer.   It a flight being offered to the public as an AIR MOBILE MECHANIC SERVICE.

The one is a non-common carrier flight, the other is a common carrier flight!

The public was calling for an air ambulance and some non-pilot was making an operational decision not GO/accept the flight based personal feelings/comfort levels, even after the PIC (who has final authority) accepted the flight (i.e, said GO).

one say's, "no, I'm not flying" based on a superstition he has fying on days of the month that have a "1" in the date.   "NO, he says!   Period, you can't make me!"

So, the other mechanic is stuck on the oil platform and can't now get to the other because 1-said-NO

you can fly over and get the other mechanic lol you stupid retard

that should tell you something lol. 

If you medical types would spend more time and effort on perfecting your skill, maybe less people will die while you are transporting them. Stay in your lane. 

NO, I say now, it sounds dangerouis and I'm not comfortable with you doing that.     I say NO.   We're not going.

the only thing stopping you is you're not an ems pilot

that would be so cool bro

you can manipulate them to turn down flights and then go back to sleep.

Just bring up the radar, stare at it while rubbing your chin, hem and haw and then finally say something like "it looks doable".  Their little brains catch on fire and they start with the "I'm not comfortable" BS.  You turn it down because of the medcrew.

You get to be a company man, they get to be WX hero's, and everyone gets to sleep.

Win, win.

and always has been. PIC responsibility starts once everybody agrees to go and are at the aircraft.

That means he is sharing operational control, by definition, with medical crewmembers, even though the PIC and the OCC specialist have already approved the flight and got the necessary flight release.  

when a flight attentant calls in sick and it's not covered so they cancel the flight, does the flight attendant have operational control? nope. doesn't matter why there not on the aircraft, they're just not. 

by definition lol

and sit around and still get paid to sleep!   They don't make weather decisions either!

to "initiate" the flight. they just need to get on. if they don't, no point in going but hardly exercising operational control. ayfkm

a passenger not getting on an aircraft 

No, they are not crew members. If they were they would be getting crew member training and recurrent training like a part 121 crew membe. medical people are passengers.

passenger training records

you mentioned has anything to do with the operation of an aircraft. 

does not make somebody a crew member. the day a company began using goggles is not the day the nurse became a crew member. you're asking somebody to look outside the aircraft. hardly a crew member function.

as aircraft crew members. I won't either

doesn't make it real. you do a little required safety training but they are passengers.

take off to landing? if so, you are carrying passengers 

You fly for an on-demand 135 operator.  A rich guy calls and says he wants a helicopter to take him to the Super Bowl stadium.  On the day of the game it's raining but well above your wx minimums so you're ready to go.  The guy calls you and says he doesn't want to fly because of the weather.

Has he exercised operational control?

The guy in your scenerio is the customer.   The customer is calling the certificate holder to fly him to the Super Bowl because the certificate holder holds out to the public to provide 1st class helicoper service from point A to point B, complete with a cabin attendant who will polish his shoes and serve him a fine Latte.  The rich customer hires the certificate holder for that 1st class service because the certificate holder's 2nd tiered operational control person (the pilot) determined the flight could be completed.   Then, the cabin attendant decides they don't want to go because they have a hot date later and call a NO for the flight, cancelling the flight the real customer contracted for.

You have the customer wrong in your example.   The rich guy is the requesting hospital, not the medical crewmember.  

Therefore, your perspective is very blurry and way out of focus!

is a passenger...the medcrew are passengers.  The FAR's don't mention customers.

W TF ever.  Can we all just go to bed now?