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Msg ID: 2733949 Q: How many accidents can you think of that are attributed to Part 135 (NT) +1/-1     
Author:Duty/Rest violations or issues?
6/28/2022 2:33:44 PM


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Msg ID: 2733956 Q: How many accidents can you think of that are attributed to Part 135  +0/-0     
Author:You Might Be Too Tired For Your
6/28/2022 3:21:17 PM

Reply to: 2733949

Own good.

https://politicrossing.com/too-tired-for-your-own-good/

 



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Msg ID: 2733960 I'll count your response as a NONE that you know of (NT) +1/-1     
Author:Anonymous
6/28/2022 3:27:03 PM

Reply to: 2733956


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Msg ID: 2734123 Q: How many accidents can you think of that are attributed to Part 135  +0/-0     
Author:NWA Flight 188
6/30/2022 2:23:29 PM

Reply to: 2733956

Overshot airport by 150 miles. 



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Msg ID: 2734128 Again, not Part 135, and not Duty/Rest issue. They were distracted (NT) +0/-0     
Author:by PDAs and schedule/bid planning
6/30/2022 2:39:58 PM

Reply to: 2734123


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Msg ID: 2733962 Duty/Rest violations? (NT) +1/-1     
Author:none
6/28/2022 3:46:59 PM

Reply to: 2733949


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Msg ID: 2733964 Accidents are due to pilot fatigue (NT) +1/-0     
Author:Duty/Rest attempts to mitigate fatigue
6/28/2022 3:54:22 PM

Reply to: 2733949


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Msg ID: 2734006 OK, so cite some accidents/incidents related to this causal (NT) +0/-0     
Author:factor. lots of examples, right?
6/28/2022 10:42:37 PM

Reply to: 2733964


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Msg ID: 2733965 Duty/Rest accidents have been studied +5/-0     
Author:And it is a factor
6/28/2022 3:59:49 PM

Reply to: 2733949

"the proportion of accidents associated with pilots having longer duty periods is higher than the proportion of longer duty periods for all pilots. For 10– 12 hours of duty time, the proportion of accident pilots with this length of duty period is 1.7 times as large as for all pilots. For pilots with 13 or more hours of duty, the proportion of accident pilot duty periods is over five and a half times as high."

 

https://www.eurocockpit.be/sites/default/files/Goode-2003.pdf



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Msg ID: 2734008 IOWs, nothing conclusive here! Looking for actual accidents, not  +0/-1     
Author:"data suggests"
6/28/2022 10:52:33 PM

Reply to: 2733965

6. Conclusion There is a discernible pattern of increased probability of an accident the greater the hours of duty time for commercial aircraft pilots in the United States. Although the empirical analysis reported above notes that pilot scheduling was not a factor in all of these accidents, it does point to increased risk of accidents with increased duty time and cumulative duty time. The analysis does not indicate any discontinuity at a specific duty time such that it would point to exactly where risk increases significantly. Rather, the data show a relatively constant increase with increased length of work periods. In light of the above, the analysis suggests that establishing limits on duty time for commercial pilots would reduce risk.



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Msg ID: 2733977 Why aren't you including 121? (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Anonymous
6/28/2022 5:58:21 PM

Reply to: 2733949


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Msg ID: 2734010 Because 135 flying and 121 flying are different, obviously! +0/-0     
Author:~We work in 135, not 121
6/28/2022 10:59:18 PM

Reply to: 2733977

But, if you have any accidents directly related to duty day proples in 121, simply cite them.   Are there any that YOU know of?



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Msg ID: 2734067 Because 135 flying and 121 flying are different, obviously! +0/-0     
Author:#$%%^
6/29/2022 7:11:51 PM

Reply to: 2734010
UPS 1353. Birmingham, AL. 2013


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Msg ID: 2734091 Again, not a Part 135 flight! And, crew was within the Part 121 duty  +0/-0     
Author:requirements. Seems FO abused...
6/29/2022 11:39:37 PM

Reply to: 2734067

... rest requirements.   Wasn't a regulatory failure, but a failure-to-follow-the-regulatory failure.   The two examples you gave had the common demoninator beign the FO was a female, however.

 

Again, looking for Part 135 accidents that were attributed duty day/rest factors.

 

Thanks for your contribution, but not germane



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Msg ID: 2733995 Q: How many accidents can you think of that are attributed to Part 135  +0/-1     
Author:666
6/28/2022 8:38:05 PM

Reply to: 2733949

Nearly 75% of all accidents have as a main contributing factor, low standards.

The other 25% involves extremely low standards.

DO THE MATH.



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Msg ID: 2734017 Q: How many accidents can you think of that are attributed to Part 135  +0/-0     
Author:I know
6/29/2022 12:12:40 AM

Reply to: 2733995

12 is the correct answer



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Msg ID: 2734034 Name some of them please (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Anonymous
6/29/2022 9:05:23 AM

Reply to: 2734017


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Msg ID: 2734083 Name some of them please +1/-0     
Author:Colgan air
6/29/2022 9:25:32 PM

Reply to: 2734034

Buffalo New York... 

 

 



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Msg ID: 2734090 First, that's 121, not 135. Second, what makes this  +0/-0     
Author:duty/rest issue?
6/29/2022 11:25:50 PM

Reply to: 2734083

Nothing in the NTSB report showed any violation of crew duty day, or justified it's fatigue conclusion.  Even Chairman Sumwalt dissented with that conclusion:

 

However, Vice Chairman Christopher A. Hart and Board Member Robert L. Sumwalt III dissented on the inclusion of fatigue as a contributing factor, on the grounds that evidence was insufficient to support such a conclusion. Notably, the same kind of pilot errors and standard operating procedure violations had been found in other accidents where fatigue was not a factor.[3]: 171–173 

To state that fatigue was a contributing factor, and thus part of the probable cause, would be inconsistent with the above finding and would, therefore, disrupt this flow of logic. I did not feel, therefore – nor did the board's majority – that we had sufficient information or evidence to conclude that fatigue should be part of the probable cause of this accident.[3]: 171–173 



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Msg ID: 2734111 Although this one is a Part 121, interesting fatigue investigation +0/-1     
Author:Just me again
6/30/2022 10:10:53 AM

Reply to: 2733949

UPS Flight 1354

The National Transportation Safety Board determines that the probable cause of this accident was (along with other items) snip..... the captain’s performance deficiencies likely due to factors including, but not limited to, fatigue, distraction, or confusion, consistent with performance deficiencies exhibited during training; and (6) the first officer’s fatigue due to acute sleep loss resulting from her ineffective off-duty time management and circadian factors....../unsnip

They didn't have to dig deep to see the cellphone/tablet usage

 



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Msg ID: 2734125 But, the FAA admitted there weren't any rule violation issues (NT) +0/-0     
Author:here. Not FAR's or GOM factors...
6/30/2022 2:33:46 PM

Reply to: 2734111


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Msg ID: 2734136 Q: How many accidents can you think of that are attributed to Part 135  +0/-0     
Author:NWA Flight 188
6/30/2022 4:50:11 PM

Reply to: 2733949

Overflew their destination by 150 miles.



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Msg ID: 2734154 Q: How many accidents can you think of that are attributed to Part 135  +1/-0     
Author:The reason the limits
6/30/2022 10:33:11 PM

Reply to: 2733949

cost is from historical problems with pilot fatigue.  Personally I think duty of 12 hours is the best limit but can be awkward to implement.



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Msg ID: 2734157 Can you cite any accidents occurring 12 and beyond? (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Does the FAA/NTSB even know?
6/30/2022 11:11:39 PM

Reply to: 2734154


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Msg ID: 2734242 Can you cite any accidents occurring 12 and beyond?  +0/-0     
Author:More
7/2/2022 8:54:22 AM

Reply to: 2734157

than you.



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Msg ID: 2734269 One will do ! (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Anonymous
7/2/2022 12:31:53 PM

Reply to: 2734242


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Msg ID: 2734312 One will do ! +2/-0     
Author:The FAA Is Very Clear On Their
7/2/2022 8:47:44 PM

Reply to: 2734269

Policy for fatigue. ANY amount can be dangerous. Pilots should NEVER fly when exhausted. NOTC2464. If they can't find any other causal factor for an accident/incident, fatigue will be cited.



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Msg ID: 2734326 Clear policy on vagueness! (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Anonymous
7/3/2022 8:58:52 AM

Reply to: 2734312


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Msg ID: 2734359 Was looking for accident citations, not generalities (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Do you have any?
7/3/2022 7:50:59 PM

Reply to: 2734312


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Msg ID: 2734375 Was looking for accident citations, not generalities (NT) +0/-0     
Author:NWA Flight 188 For Starters
7/3/2022 10:49:25 PM

Reply to: 2734359


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Msg ID: 2734381 As noted above, that is Part 121, not 135, and was two pilots (NT) +0/-0     
Author:playing on their phones/PDAs
7/3/2022 11:52:46 PM

Reply to: 2734375


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Msg ID: 2734401 As noted above, that is Part 121, not 135, and was two pilots +0/-0     
Author:That’s What They Claimed But
7/4/2022 9:22:57 AM

Reply to: 2734381

There was no evidence to support their claim. It would have been IMPOSSIBLE for both pilots to miss that many ATC calls without them both being asleep. They were tired, fatigued, against biorhythm, and ASLEEP. They were very lucky to not have lost every life on board.



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Msg ID: 2734424 your opinion is not evidence..... (NT) +0/-0     
Author:just sayin'
7/4/2022 1:22:47 PM

Reply to: 2734401


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Msg ID: 2734447 "... it would be impossible..."  +0/-0     
Author:Anonymous
7/4/2022 7:10:38 PM

Reply to: 2734401

Not if they had the wrong frequency tuned in, and they were both busy arguing about union stuff.   Seems a "we fell asleep because our schedules were gruesome and we were fatigues" would have been the easy/best answer.   INstead, they insisted they weren't asleep, and were on the wrong frequency while "reviewing" their flight schedule bidding process.   And, ironically, the CVR didn't have any history on the loop because the microphone must have "malfunctioned".

 

This is hardly a case for fatigue, hardly an accident, and hardly Part 135.

 

 



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Msg ID: 2734453 "... it would be impossible..."  +0/-0     
Author:Have You Ever Flown In Class “A”
7/4/2022 8:00:29 PM

Reply to: 2734447

Airspace? If you have, you would know there is no way in heaven or earth that both pilots could miss all the calls that would be transmitted. EXCEPT for being asleep. No way they were on the wrong frequency. If you check in with no reply, you are supposed to go to prior frequency. You obviously don't know any of that, so you really shouldn't be speculating. They were 100% asleep. They tried the checking schedules lie because they thought ALPA could get them out of that easier than being asleep, which would have been a complete dereliction of duty.



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Msg ID: 2734463 In a Part 135 helicopter?? No, have you? (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Please reread OP request again!~
7/4/2022 9:00:49 PM

Reply to: 2734453


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Msg ID: 2734475 In a Part 135 helicopter?? No, have you?  +0/-0     
Author:No, Not In A Part 135 Helicopter
7/4/2022 11:37:32 PM

Reply to: 2734463

But if you read the original post, the OP doesn't specify HELICOPTERS. Besides, if it is dangerous in a fixed wing, chances are a cinch that it's even more dangerous in a helicopter. Just as it is in this example. 



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Msg ID: 2734477 The OP (me) posted on a helicopter site asking for Part 135 accidents +0/-0     
Author:that were duty/rest related. do...
7/5/2022 12:01:32 AM

Reply to: 2734475

.. you have any??   Are there any??  Can you cite any??   So far, all that was cited were Part 121 operations, not related to DUTY/REST problems



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Msg ID: 2734478 ".. just as in this example." Can you somehow explain how +0/-0     
Author:this is related to Duty/Rest Part 135
7/5/2022 12:03:54 AM

Reply to: 2734475

This example has nothing to do with REST, nothing to do with DUTY, and nothing to do with PART 135



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Msg ID: 2734487 NWA Flight 188: The Rest Of The Story +0/-0     
Author:(Which isn't about REST/Fatigue at all)
7/5/2022 8:36:59 AM

Reply to: 2734401
"Impossible" he says. "Have you ever flown in Class A airspace" he asks? Yes, and so has this guy: https://www.salon.com/2009/12/11/askthepilot344/ Again, looking for PART 135 accidents attributed to DUTY/REST issues. Not Part 121, or incidents having nothing to do with DUTY/REST issues. Thank you


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Msg ID: 2734499 NWA Flight 188: The Rest Of The Story +0/-0     
Author:What You Have Found On This
7/5/2022 9:23:48 AM

Reply to: 2734487

Thread is a lot of evidence to support the fact that fatigue is detrimental to safety. Crew rest and duty time limits are designed to minimize this danger. You have found no evidence to the contrary. And you have presented none. You should probably modify your thesis.



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Msg ID: 2734530 There was nothing "found" on this thread even remotely related  +0/-0     
Author:to DUTY/REST Part 135 accidents or
7/5/2022 12:36:47 PM

Reply to: 2734499
incidents. Thanks for your input so far, but it isn't relevant or helpful. Again, looking for PART 135 accidents or incidents attributed to DUTY/REST. Not PART 121, and not ones that don't have DUTY or REST listed as a causal or contributing factor. Can you cite any?


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Msg ID: 2734531 There was nothing "found" on this thread even remotely related  +0/-0     
Author:Maybe You Could Be Helpful And
7/5/2022 12:39:47 PM

Reply to: 2734530

Share your opinion that you are trying to validate. Then you might gain some cooperation to legitimize your opinion.



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Msg ID: 2734533 Actually, I'm seeking supporting references/citations that legitimize someo +0/-0     
Author:else's opinions & recommendations
7/5/2022 12:49:42 PM

Reply to: 2734531
In research, it's known as a literature review of a problem, to see if one really exists.


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