Msg ID:
2732099 |
Encouraging pilots to not pick up overtime during negotiations is illegal (NT) +1/-0
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Author:Only By Parties To The Negotiation
6/12/2022 1:33:14 AM
Reply to: 2732096
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Msg ID:
2732124 |
or when Unions don't intervene condemning the message (NT) +1/-0
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Author:and stopping the rouge unionists
6/12/2022 9:10:34 AM
Reply to: 2732099
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Msg ID:
2732149 |
or when Unions don't intervene condemning the message +2/-0
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Author:Rogue, Like The X-Men Super
6/12/2022 4:29:03 PM
Reply to: 2732124
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Hero. There is no rouge X-Men super hero. He/She would be all red, or a cast member of moulin rouge. |
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Msg ID:
2732104 |
Encouraging pilots to not pick up overtime during negotiations is illegal +5/-1
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Author:STD trash
6/12/2022 2:17:06 AM
Reply to: 2732096
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So is massive ballot box stuffing. What’s your point? |
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Msg ID:
2732107 |
Everyone's selfish! +1/-0
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Author:Anonymous
6/12/2022 7:10:40 AM
Reply to: 2732096
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It's whether you are selfish and smart or selfish and dumb. A stooge that works at cross-purposes to collective bargaining is selfish and dumb. |
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Msg ID:
2732125 |
and profitable since the overtime is plentiful! (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Anonymous
6/12/2022 9:11:51 AM
Reply to: 2732107
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Msg ID:
2732142 |
Fantastic! +1/-0
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Author:Anonymous
6/12/2022 1:08:35 PM
Reply to: 2732125
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Thanks to you, sooner or later, everyone else will break down and return. Then everyone, including and especially you, will make a fraction of what they could be making.
Cooperation increases wages. Cutthroat competition reduces them. |
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Msg ID:
2732143 |
It's called Status Quo pal, Status Quo! (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Anonymous
6/12/2022 1:28:48 PM
Reply to: 2732142
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Msg ID:
2732150 |
and profitable since the overtime is plentiful! +0/-0
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Author:You Can Maximize The Profitable
6/12/2022 4:32:31 PM
Reply to: 2732125
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Aspect of your position by taking open shifts every day you are scheduled off, and never taking sick, personal, or vacation days. |
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Msg ID:
2732152 |
Or…CUT unneeded management and their bonuses. Worthless investment (NT) +2/-0
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Author:Waaay too much management and overpaid
6/12/2022 4:36:44 PM
Reply to: 2732150
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Msg ID:
2732110 |
NOT illegal. A violation during certain points of the process AND +8/-0
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Author:ONLY by parties to agreement
6/12/2022 7:22:12 AM
Reply to: 2732096
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Stop trying to scare people |
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Msg ID:
2732126 |
You don't read very well! No wonder you don't (NT) +0/-0
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Author:negotiate contracts worth the paper
6/12/2022 9:12:51 AM
Reply to: 2732110
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Msg ID:
2732115 |
Encouraging pilots to not pick up overtime during negotiations is illegal +1/-1
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Author:If I were you, bro
6/12/2022 7:53:59 AM
Reply to: 2732096
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I would call the police and file a report lol |
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Msg ID:
2732117 |
No. It’s not illegal. STOP trying to scare people AMC management (NT) +1/-1
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Author:Scare tactics don’t work here anymore
6/12/2022 8:27:42 AM
Reply to: 2732115
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Msg ID:
2732127 |
Scare, isn't that what you are trying to do? Scare the company (NT) +0/-1
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Author:into complying with your arm twisting?
6/12/2022 9:14:52 AM
Reply to: 2732117
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Msg ID:
2732135 |
Encouraging pilots to not pick up overtime during negotiations is illegal +1/-0
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Author:AMC #5
6/12/2022 11:06:31 AM
Reply to: 2732096
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Maybe post this to the union board, or are you scared because you can't complain anonymously on there. don't be a coward. |
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Msg ID:
2732139 |
Union itself needs to do it, so it's officially discouraged (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Otherwise, it's tacit approval
6/12/2022 12:32:26 PM
Reply to: 2732135
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Msg ID:
2732140 |
Union came here to secretly promote this (NT) +0/-0
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Author:So this is where it is countered
6/12/2022 12:37:28 PM
Reply to: 2732135
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Msg ID:
2732188 |
Encouraging pilots to not pick up overtime during negotiations is illegal +0/-1
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Author:And what
6/12/2022 11:21:25 PM
Reply to: 2732135
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I wonder, would the union do to a member that is pointing out a valid claim of illegal activity by the union and/or its members? Is it a valid claim or not? It's irrelevant who is making a claim unless the union intends on some sort of blackmail or strong arm campaign. |
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Msg ID:
2732146 |
Encouraging pilots to not pick up overtime during negotiations is illegal +1/-0
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Author:Yes, illegal for the union
6/12/2022 4:10:31 PM
Reply to: 2732096
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Legal for a pilot to decline voluntary overtime, and legal to tell others pilots why they are doing it |
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Msg ID:
2732151 |
Again. Where has the union done this? Haven’t seen anything from the union +2/-1
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Author:On workover or work actions.
6/12/2022 4:33:48 PM
Reply to: 2732146
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Stop trying to stir the pot and scare people with your fake news |
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Msg ID:
2732153 |
Again. Where has the union done this? Haven’t seen anything from the union +0/-1
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Author:You should work on
6/12/2022 4:42:53 PM
Reply to: 2732151
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Reading before replying |
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Msg ID:
2732161 |
The union is it's pilot's. Anyone telling anyone else (NT) +0/-2
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Author:to do this is Union telling them!
6/12/2022 5:57:38 PM
Reply to: 2732151
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Msg ID:
2732166 |
No. No it’s not….or you yourself would be complicit in this act based on (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Your theory and warped reality
6/12/2022 6:31:32 PM
Reply to: 2732161
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Msg ID:
2732168 |
Simple facts. Refusing OT to inflict hardship on company (NT) +0/-2
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Author:is ILLEGAL, regardless who call for it!
6/12/2022 6:52:29 PM
Reply to: 2732166
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Msg ID:
2732170 |
Simple facts. Refusing OT to inflict hardship on company +0/-0
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Author:No Employee Can Be Coerced
6/12/2022 6:55:29 PM
Reply to: 2732168
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Into taking open shifts. Note that open shifts are not the same as overtime. Open shifts are unpredictable and vary widely. Overtime does not. |
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Msg ID:
2732171 |
What part of “voluntary” do you not understand. Your logic does not apply +1/-0
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Author:Thanks to the CBA language.
6/12/2022 7:10:22 PM
Reply to: 2732170
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Goodbye. |
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Msg ID:
2732179 |
What part of court orders do you not understand? (NT) +0/-1
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Author:Enjoined!
6/12/2022 9:00:31 PM
Reply to: 2732171
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Msg ID:
2732182 |
What part of court orders do you not understand? +1/-0
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Author:Court
6/12/2022 9:38:20 PM
Reply to: 2732179
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Court ordered overtim?
It is voluntary overtime.
Are you feeling ok?
It is pretty simple. Voluntary Overtime.
I am not participating in voluntary overtime. The court can't force me to work overtime. |
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Msg ID:
2732157 |
Nope! A pilot is a union member. Thus, one pilot telling another not to +0/-1
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Author:pickup OT is same as "union" telling
6/12/2022 5:51:42 PM
Reply to: 2732146
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The Union (and all its members) are barred from attempting to organize a work slow down. You are in STATUS QUO! The amounts of OT being picked up system wide should not change. The fact that it changes coupled with pilot's telling other pilot's NOT to take any OT is a violation of STATUS QUO!
Doesn't matter who's telling pilot's to do that!
Unions are OBLIGATED to tell their pilots to continue on as normal (ie, Statue Quo) during negotiations, which began the moment union sent their Section 6 notice. Otherwise, it would be OK for someone to tell the company to ignore other norms they have been doing! They can play your silly game too if they wanted to stoop down to your level! |
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Msg ID:
2732159 |
Nope! A pilot is a union member. Thus, one pilot telling another not to +3/-0
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Author:Status Quo
6/12/2022 5:55:01 PM
Reply to: 2732157
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Yes, status quo. Overtime is voluntary. |
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Msg ID:
2732163 |
Statistically voluntarily! If, historically, they been paying X amount (NT) +0/-1
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Author:of OT1 each payday, it shouldn't change
6/12/2022 6:04:06 PM
Reply to: 2732159
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Msg ID:
2732160 |
Nope! A pilot is a union member. Thus, one pilot telling another not to +3/-0
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Author:Picking Up Shifts Is Not Status Quo
6/12/2022 5:55:59 PM
Reply to: 2732157
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Picking up shifts is unpredictable, and varies widely. Status quo applies to normal scheduled workdays. Non negotiating parties are free to encourage or discourage unscheduled pickup of open shifts. |
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Msg ID:
2732165 |
Nope! A pilot is a union member. Thus, one pilot telling another not to +0/-0
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Author:Status Quo
6/12/2022 6:19:08 PM
Reply to: 2732160
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OT is voluntary. |
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Msg ID:
2732167 |
Unfortunately, it is: +0/-2
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Author: Just STOP with your illegal campaign
6/12/2022 6:39:03 PM
Reply to: 2732160
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And, any _real_ transportation union (with _real_ RLA experience) knows this:
The district court properly determined that Delta's pilots were engaged in an unlawful no-overtime campaign. However, the district court improperly interpreted the gravity and depth of ALPA's duty under the RLA to prevent such an unlawful job action. Because there has been no showing that ALPA lacks control over the pilots, reason dictates that ALPA has not done enough to fulfill its statutorily mandated duty to "maintain" the agreement and avoid an "interruption to commerce." Upon remand, the district court shall issue appropriate injunctive relief directing ALPA to take further steps to end the pilots' no-overtime campaign.
https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F3/238/1300/515379/span>
"It is illegal under the Railway Labor Act for airline employees to go on strike without following a complicated set of rules under federal oversight. Even lesser forms of protest, such as widespread efforts to turn down overtime, are against federal rules, McBryde said."
https://www.dallasnews.com/business/local-companies/2019/08/12/american-airlines-wins-trial-over-mechanics-in-work-slowdown-case/
"On May 20, 2019, plaintiff initiated this action by filing its complaint. Doc. 1. Plaintiff alleged: To gain leverage in contract negotiations, defendants' members changed their behavior in a concerted fashion by, for example, taking an unusual amount of time to repair aircraft and refusing to work overtime
https://casetext.com/case/am-airlines-inc-v-transp-workers-union-of-am-1 >
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Msg ID:
2732169 |
Unfortunately, it is: voluntary overtime +4/-0
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Author:Voluntary Overtime
6/12/2022 6:55:20 PM
Reply to: 2732167
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It is simple. I will shorten it for you. Voluntary Overtime.
Voluntary. Done, given, or acting of one's own free will "we are funded by voluntary contributions"
Overtime. Time in addition to what is normal, as time worked beyond one's scheduled working hours."fewer opportunities for overtime"
I am choosing not to do voluntary overtime. |
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Msg ID:
2732198 |
Status Quo Overtime!! The data proves it! +0/-1
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Author:Courts Issue TRO and fine unions!
6/13/2022 7:24:02 AM
Reply to: 2732169
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You are on this public forum encouraging pilot conduct themselves ILLEGALLY! STOP IT!
https://thepointsguy.com/news/american-airlines-scores-a-court-victory-as-battle-with-mechanics-drags-on/
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Msg ID:
2732205 |
Status Quo Overtime!! The data proves it! +2/-0
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Author:OT is voluntary
6/13/2022 7:41:59 AM
Reply to: 2732198
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All I am doing is stating a fact.
That fact is that overtime is voluntary.
You might not like that fact, but it doesn't change that fact.
Overtime is voluntary. That's the fact.
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Msg ID:
2732208 |
And also fact: Union's have been fined for discouraging OT during (NT) +0/-0
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Author:negotiations. It's bad faith bargaining
6/13/2022 7:49:31 AM
Reply to: 2732205
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Msg ID:
2732220 |
Voting with my feet +1/-0
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Author:No problem
6/13/2022 10:19:49 AM
Reply to: 2732208
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I am not working or doing overtime.
I voted already with my feet. |
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Msg ID:
2732257 |
ALL of those references involved mandatory overtime NOT voluntary! (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Read much…
6/13/2022 2:44:22 PM
Reply to: 2732208
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Msg ID:
2732234 |
Status Quo Overtime!! The data proves it! +0/-0
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Author:I see
6/13/2022 12:05:55 PM
Reply to: 2732205
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someone is starting to see the error of their boisterous opinion. |
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Msg ID:
2732250 |
Courts say it is illegal and that air carriers can seek injuctive +0/-0
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Author:relief against individual pilots
6/13/2022 1:27:13 PM
Reply to: 2732234
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https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/appellate-courts/F3/238/1300/515379/p>
Delta Air Lines, Inc., Plaintiff-appellant, v. Air Line Pilots Association, International, et al., Defendants-appellees, 238 F.3d 1300 (11th Cir. 2001)
U.S. Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit - 238 F.3d 1300 (11th Cir. 2001)January 18, 2001
"The district court properly determined that Delta's pilots were engaged in an unlawful no-overtime campaign. However, the district court improperly interpreted the gravity and depth of ALPA's duty under the RLA to prevent such an unlawful job action. Because there has been no showing that ALPA lacks control over the pilots, reason dictates that ALPA has not done enough to fulfill its statutorily mandated duty to "maintain" the agreement and avoid an "interruption to commerce." Upon remand, the district court shall issue appropriate injunctive relief directing ALPA to take further steps to end the pilots' no-overtime campaign. Further steps may include issuing directives as drafted by the court and threatening (or imposing) union sanctions for violations, as permitted by ALPA's constitution.25 If ALPA complies with the court's orders and the no-overtime campaign continues, Delta may return to the district court for injunctive relief against individual pilots, as discussed supra Part III.C."
If the pre-Section 6 negotiation notice was that there was normally X amount of overtime being taken up by pilots, then to maintain STATUS QUO, the number X should not change. Furthermore, the Union has a statutoryily mandated duty to maintain the pre-Section 6 notice norms or find itself being sanctioned by the court. Particulary, if there is evidence of any concerted effort to pursuade pilots not to work overtime to "put a hurt" on the company, as we've seen here already.
You don't have to be a lawyer to understand this! You just have to be an intellectually honest individual! |
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Msg ID:
2732253 |
OT is voluntary (NT) +1/-0
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Author:Voluntary overtime is not mandatory
6/13/2022 1:49:39 PM
Reply to: 2732250
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Msg ID:
2732255 |
Simply not applicable. Courts also say you’re mentally incompetent (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Yet here you are
6/13/2022 2:39:25 PM
Reply to: 2732250
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Msg ID:
2732260 |
Courts say it is illegal and that air carriers can seek injuctive +0/-0
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Author:Overtime Is Different Than Open
6/13/2022 3:25:07 PM
Reply to: 2732250
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Shift. |
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Msg ID:
2732265 |
Workover and Overtime are different. Voluntary is indisputable. (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Bring it on….no one’s scared
6/13/2022 3:51:07 PM
Reply to: 2732260
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Msg ID:
2732269 |
Appears that YOU are the only one making threats and using scare tactics (NT) +0/-0
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Author:FYI…it’s not working. It won’t
6/13/2022 4:23:01 PM
Reply to: 2732250
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Msg ID:
2732270 |
Shift coverage on s overtime. Overtime is voluntary. (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Should ft coverage is overtime.
6/13/2022 5:01:15 PM
Reply to: 2732269
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Msg ID:
2732271 |
Like the court ruling said, open time is voluntary +0/-0
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Author:Just like workover I voluntarily
6/13/2022 5:18:00 PM
Reply to: 2732270
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The fact you need to come here and tell (advocate/sell) pilot's the need to change their behavior 5o not puck up any more workovers to get some leverage on the company is exactly the same behavior that earned ALPA DELTP pilot's the court injunction above. It is ILLEGAL for you or anyone to attempt to change the norm, it is a form of a strike/work slowdown when you are in STATUS QUO.
It is not STATUS QUO calling for behavior changes!
Because you are calling for an organized effort here, violates Article 8 of the CBA, which clearly states you can't and you can be terminated without any right to grievance protections for attempting to organize a slowdown. And, that penalty is supported in the Delta vs ALPA court ring above also.
Section 8.1
Neither the Union or any of its agents (stewards) nor any of its members will collectively,
concertedly, or in any manner engage in a strike, sick-out, boycott, sympathy strike, slow down
or work stoppage of any kind during the term of this Agreement. During the term of this
Agreement, the Company agrees not to lock out any of the employees covered by this
Agreement. It is further understood that the duly-authorized representatives of the Union shall
use their best efforts on behalf of the Union to actively encourage the employees engaging in a
violation of this Section to cease such conduct. If the Company knows one of its Customers will
have a primary picket line, the Company will notify the Pilot before dispatching the Pilot to the
location. A Pilot may refuse to take an assignment to cross a picket line if he has reasonable
safety concerns based on verifiable incidents of picket line misconduct at the site. In such
cases, the Company reserves the right to meet Customer needs however it deems appropriate.
Section 8.2
Employees found to be in violation of the terms of this Section shall be subject to discharge.
Such discharge shall not be subject to the grievance procedure or System Board of Adjustment
and Arbitration provisions of this Agreement, except as to the question of whether the Pilot
engaged in such a violation |
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Msg ID:
2732273 |
Like the court ruling said, open time is voluntary +0/-0
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Author:Voluntary
6/13/2022 5:25:29 PM
Reply to: 2732271
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Fact. Overtime is voluntary. |
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Reply Return-To-Index
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Msg ID:
2732274 |
So is Open Time in the airlines, yet ALPA was cited for +0/-0
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Author:their ILLEGAL No Open Time campaign
6/13/2022 5:48:14 PM
Reply to: 2732273
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It is illegal to tell pilot's what you are telling them! Status Quo means contine as normal, which is established as pilot's picking up workover at a specific rate. If that rate drops, particularly after your "don't work any extra shifts" message, then you are committing BAD FAITH NEGOTIATIONS.
You said above that the company was violating status quo, but you haven't once gave a single example of it to justify that statement. |
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Msg ID:
2732277 |
Still waiting for you to post the communication from the union calling 4 +0/-0
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Author:Any work stoppage or work action
6/13/2022 6:18:22 PM
Reply to: 2732271
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Oh yeah....it doesn't exist Because they have not. it's all in your fragile little mind. |
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Msg ID:
2732282 |
Just look here! Been posted several times. Union is obligated for +0/-0
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Author:to tell its members otherwise!
6/13/2022 6:46:05 PM
Reply to: 2732277
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A hush hush campaign is still a campaign!
Union is obligated to tell its pilot's otherwise. |
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Msg ID:
2732276 |
So is your mom….. see (NT) +1/-0
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Author:No one cares
6/13/2022 6:16:06 PM
Reply to: 2732096
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Msg ID:
2732291 |
Work over shift coverage overtime +0/-0
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Author:All voluntary
6/13/2022 7:59:07 PM
Reply to: 2732276
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Why don't you like facts?
I don't have to work anymore than my scheduled shifts.
Work over, shift coverage and overtime are voluntary.
I am just stating facts. |
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Msg ID:
2732293 |
the stall is the appropriate place +2/-0
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Author:for your post
6/13/2022 8:18:29 PM
Reply to: 2732096
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It is not illegal to refuse to work overtime.
It is not illegal to discuss why you are not working overtime.
Your citations refer to are union sanctioned work slowdowns, and overtime refusals. |
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Msg ID:
2732370 |
Encouraging pilots to not pick up overtime during negotiations is illegal +1/-0
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Author:Encouraging it may be,
6/14/2022 4:24:24 PM
Reply to: 2732096
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but simply not doing it, like I have always chosen, is not.
Lifeis for living, not sitting around at a base twiddling thumbs (demoralizing too). |
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Msg ID:
2732376 |
And, that is encouraging it. You are in Status Quo, so (NT) +0/-1
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Author:there shouldn't be any hint to do it!
6/14/2022 5:16:21 PM
Reply to: 2732370
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Msg ID:
2732389 |
Voluntary overtime (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Is voluntary
6/14/2022 6:55:00 PM
Reply to: 2732376
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Reply Return-To-Index
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Msg ID:
2732438 |
Status quo +1/-1
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Author:Status quo
6/15/2022 10:50:00 AM
Reply to: 2732389
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Status quo. Overtime, shift coverage and work over have been voluntary and still are voluntary. |
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Msg ID:
2732507 |
And, that is encouraging it. You are in Status Quo, so +0/-0
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Author:King
6/15/2022 7:59:23 PM
Reply to: 2732376
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of obfuscation and double-triple not-think - aka garbage... |
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Msg ID:
2732514 |
Status Quo +0/-0
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Author:So
6/15/2022 8:31:39 PM
Reply to: 2732507
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Stating a fact is encouraging what? Overtime is voluntary. It might encourage someone to do overtime. |
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Msg ID:
2732909 |
Encouraging pilots to not pick up overtime during negotiations is illegal +0/-0
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Author:So?
6/19/2022 2:29:13 AM
Reply to: 2732096
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These days everything is illegal - welcome to utopian marxland. |
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