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Msg ID: 2727888 SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method +5/-0     
Author:What to do?
4/29/2022 7:19:35 AM

At annual training recently we did our usual recognize and recover from SWP. Climb to 2500', turn so you are lined up with a tail wind, bleed off airspeed to zero while maintaining altitude. At around zero airspeed the IP reduces collective a little to start a descent and says recover. So we don't ever get into SWP, but its about learning what it might feel like and recovering by lowering collective a smidge and flying out of the desecending column of air. 

I have asked if we can recover using the Vuichard Method and always hear its not in the training manual or something like the FAA have not acknoweleged it yet, so we don't do it that way.

Is this common in the USA? Should we be teaching the new (Vuichard) method? What does Bell teach?

I'm adding this link even though I sure most have seen it before, but the music is cool :-)

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HjeRSDsy-nE

 



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Msg ID: 2727889 SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method +11/-0     
Author:anony
4/29/2022 7:36:49 AM

Reply to: 2727888

The formalization of the technique called the Vuichard method came out after I left my flight school as an CFI but our flight school owner was a former utility pilot so the concept had already been taught to all of us going back many years.  The general idea being sometimes you dont have the option of going forward, so it doesnt matter what you do, left right or even backwards you need to get the disc into clean air.  The earlier you feel it, the easier it is to get out of it.  Vuichard merely formalized it, gave it a name and has done a good job of pushing it through the industry but many people already were aware of the concept and been doing it for a long time.  

When it came out I was an IP for AS350's and I added it and taught both just to show the different options, but again prevention is the best medicine.  My former flight teaches both as well, the Vuichard just a more formalized version of what we were doing regarding alternative escapes.  

As always proper planning and flying to avoid it is best, but next to that early recognition and recovery is key.  Vuichard while it works well with IVRS (incipient vortex ring state) if you let or force the aircraft it deeper versions of it and get into god forbid full blown VRS which can be a terrifying experience then its not going to help you.  You will be making almost full deflections of the cyclic and aircraft just does not respond/mushes in other directions.  You just hope to fly out of it anyway you can before impact.  

 



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Msg ID: 2728001 SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method +0/-0     
Author:Anonymous
4/29/2022 8:22:43 PM

Reply to: 2727888

The FAA HAS acknowledged it.  Google FAASTEAM & Vuichard Recovery



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Msg ID: 2728021 SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method +0/-2     
Author:I’m pretty sure that SWP recovery
4/29/2022 10:35:42 PM

Reply to: 2728001

has always been to use directional flight in order to exit the crappy air.  The easiest way to demonstrate that is to go forward.  The good instructors emphasized the "directional" aspect and demonstrated other than just forward, the lazy stuck with just straight ahead.



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Msg ID: 2728026 SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method +0/-1     
Author:why is directional in quotes
4/29/2022 11:07:14 PM

Reply to: 2728021

allow me to demonstrate moving the cyclic sideways, as I am not a lazy instructor that just pushes it forward.



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Msg ID: 2728038 SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method +1/-1     
Author:Anonymous
4/30/2022 6:40:12 AM

Reply to: 2728021

It's more than simply "directional flight." Watch the video. Note the difference in altitude lost vs conventional recovery (including your "directional flight").

But you're gonna keep arguing that there's nothing there, that you already know it all. But maybe somebody else will benefit from your ignorance?



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Msg ID: 2728118 "SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method" SWP and VRS are not the same. +0/-6     
Author:olderendirt
4/30/2022 6:58:25 PM

Reply to: 2727888
SWP is a power issue. SWP is pure and simple not having enough power to leave or maintain a high hover with the power avaiable. In either case, the aircraft starts descending. VRS initiates with or without sufficient power when the descent can not be arrested with 'typical' lift. I say it that way because I am told that some helos have the excess power to use pure thrust to stop VRS-particularly lightly loaded Aircranes.


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Msg ID: 2728139 "SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method" SWP and VRS are not the same. +3/-1     
Author:One Requirement Of VRS Is 20%
4/30/2022 9:10:04 PM

Reply to: 2728118

To 100% power applied. All the power in the world by itself, will not arrest VRS. If you stay in the column of air, increased power only increases downwash, so that you settle with ever increasing rate of descent. If staying in your column of air is part of your recovery strategy, decrease collective to less than 20% power. With sufficient altitude, that will dissipate the Vortex rings.



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Msg ID: 2728166 "SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method" SWP and VRS are not the same. +0/-1     
Author:Or
5/1/2022 12:11:24 AM

Reply to: 2728139

Just pull 101%!



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Msg ID: 2728168 "SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method" SWP and VRS are not the same. +0/-5     
Author:olderendirt
5/1/2022 12:24:54 AM

Reply to: 2728139
But- if you have the power to make enough thrust, the counter reaction od movin all that airdown will lift you out. Pure, brute thrust not merely aerodynamic lift.


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Msg ID: 2728180 "SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method" SWP and VRS are not the same. +3/-0     
Author:Not True At All. More Thrust Makes
5/1/2022 2:59:33 AM

Reply to: 2728168

The problem worse. 



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Msg ID: 2728379 "SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method" SWP and VRS are not the same. +1/-0     
Author:olderendirt
5/3/2022 12:03:07 PM

Reply to: 2728180

The problem worse. 

I understand why you're confused, but confused you are:

Powering out of vortex ring state

It is possible to power out of vortex ring state, but this requires having about twice the power it takes to hover. Only one full-scale helicopter, the Sikorsky S-64 Skycrane, is documented as being able to do this, when unladen.



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Msg ID: 2728405 "SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method" SWP and VRS are not the same. +3/-0     
Author:A Whole Bunch Of Wiki Info On
5/3/2022 4:09:56 PM

Reply to: 2728379

The venerable SkyCrane. I only skimmed through it all, but I do not see any VRS/SWP documentation. I did not see the reference to substantiate your claim. If that even proves to be documented, that would be the only exception, and not a good one to point out trying to use power as the only remedy for SWP.



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Msg ID: 2728321 "SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method" SWP and VRS are not the same. +0/-2     
Author:Just stop
5/2/2022 2:29:26 PM

Reply to: 2728168

You're embarrassing yourself again. Just stop.



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Msg ID: 2728390 SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method +2/-0     
Author:Anonymous
5/3/2022 1:04:54 PM

Reply to: 2727888

If you are a newer pilot please don't use this maneuver to recover. The 100% power applied is too much for you to coordinate and manage at the same time without a lot of experience. We've had a few over torques from folks who don't know what the hell they are doing. You are overcomplicating the maneuver. Just lower the collective and put in a cyclic input. Front, left, right, even aft it doesn't matter. Just get the disk in clean air. 



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Msg ID: 2728392 SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method +0/-0     
Author:The Vuichard Is Better Suited As
5/3/2022 1:34:07 PM

Reply to: 2728390

A last ditch maneuver. It can recover with minimal altitude loss at the bottom of your descent when you might not have enough altitude left to recover with the traditional recovery technique.



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Msg ID: 2728631 SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method +0/-1     
Author:so why bother with traditional
5/6/2022 2:16:08 PM

Reply to: 2728392

if you let it go that far, nothing is going to help you. skip the preliminary step. good grief.



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Msg ID: 2728676 SWP, VRS and the Vuichard Method +0/-1     
Author:The traditional is for training and
5/6/2022 7:29:28 PM

Reply to: 2728631

Checkrides. 



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