Msg ID:
2722273 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-4
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Author:Twist Grip
3/4/2022 4:19:04 AM
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Model 407 Autorotations to a taxiway, and damaged a taxiway light
Why is this necessary to do autos ????
https://helihub.com/2022/03/01/01-mar-22-n2191-bell-407-fort-worth-us-texas
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Msg ID:
2722274 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +24/-0
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Author:Anonymous
3/4/2022 6:49:59 AM
Reply to: 2722273
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That aircraft and organization probably does 50 to 75 autorotations a day to that taxiway with pilots who work in all types of environments.
if you don't understand why that type of training is necessary then you should probably find a different forI'm. |
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Msg ID:
2722276 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +2/-2
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Author:Anonymou
3/4/2022 8:19:35 AM
Reply to: 2722273
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Is that the Silver State scam guy? |
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Msg ID:
2722279 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +4/-1
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Author:olderendirt
3/4/2022 10:34:06 AM
Reply to: 2722273
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"Why is this necessary to do autos ????"
Power failures and some other issues recommend an autorotation.
I will frickin' A guarantee you that your first power failure and autorotation will not be like those done in training. Your first indication may be a yaw (got my undivided intense attention) a caution panel indication/low NR horn. You will need training to minimize the analysis and response in as timely a fashion as possible.
Your training should teach you how about NR, airspeed effects on the autorotational 'glide' and how those factor are used in the decel and landing.... ahh, the landing! Autorotation proficiency markedly increases your chances of not damaging or minimal damage to the aircraft in whatever your landing situation.
Decades ago when I was teaching and when most Army aviators were proficient in autos, I read statistics that showed about 90% of the Army's emergency autos were successful- day, night, IMC.
Good training means good flying. |
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Msg ID:
2722285 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-2
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Author:that's funny
3/4/2022 11:38:36 AM
Reply to: 2722279
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Power failures and some other issues recommend an autorotation.
gotta love the internet pilots. lol |
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Msg ID:
2722287 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +2/-1
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Author:OCONUS IP
3/4/2022 11:42:14 AM
Reply to: 2722285
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He's right, the RFM does "recommend" an autorataion for some emgerencies. Loss of T/R Thrust for example. So what's your point?
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Msg ID:
2722288 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-2
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Author:does the rfm
3/4/2022 11:57:45 AM
Reply to: 2722287
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"recommend" an auto for an engine failure. because that's what he said, dummy |
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Msg ID:
2722293 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +2/-1
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Author:OCONUS IP
3/4/2022 12:22:17 PM
Reply to: 2722288
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"Dummy." My, aren't we a bit sensitive and insecure. You read "recommend" and think it meant for an engine failure. In my opinion only a "dummy" would think that. (so maybe it's projection more than insecurity!) I read it and think it means an auto is "recommended" for other types of emergencies. To me that makes more sense than the way you read it. Just saying.... |
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Msg ID:
2722298 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-3
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Author:he
3/4/2022 1:02:55 PM
Reply to: 2722293
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f**King SAID engine failure |
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Msg ID:
2722309 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +2/-1
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Author:And OTHER
3/4/2022 3:33:08 PM
Reply to: 2722298
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Emergencies, bonehead. |
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Msg ID:
2722383 |
"Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth" I know what- let's define 'engine failure +0/-0
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Author:olderendirt
3/5/2022 1:47:03 PM
Reply to: 2722298
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he f**King SAID engine failure
I know what- let's define 'engine failure |
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Msg ID:
2722428 |
"Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth" I know what- let's define 'engine failure +0/-1
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Author:Great idea
3/6/2022 6:12:16 PM
Reply to: 2722383
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Let the hilarity commence. |
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Msg ID:
2722480 |
"Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth" I know what- let's define 'engine failure +0/-1
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Author:how disappointing
3/7/2022 11:31:45 AM
Reply to: 2722428
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I really wanted to hear the internet pilot definition of engine failure. I'm sure it would be just as entertaining as listening to you try to talk about autos. |
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Msg ID:
2722307 |
Well, ain't you a needle d1ck bug f#cker! (NT) +0/-1
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Author:olderendirt
3/4/2022 3:22:07 PM
Reply to: 2722285
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Msg ID:
2722286 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +3/-1
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Author:OCONUS IP
3/4/2022 11:39:30 AM
Reply to: 2722279
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All true!
I'd also mention the fact that in a "training auto" the engine isn't gone, it's simply at idle. The means the engine oil pressure remains good, and the generator never kicks offline. In an actual "engine out auto," those two lights illuminate on the CWAP. Pilots are very "visual" people. When they have never seen those lights in training, some have a tendency to spend precious time looking at, and even trying to deal with, those lights. When training rated pilots in a simulator, I have actually had some try to reset the generator during the autorotation! Too little time my friend!!! You'll be on the ground soon enough, and the battery will last long enough for you to make a few calls!
The last thing to mention is that in a training auto the engine is at idle and, thus, is providing a little bit of power, albeit a very small amount, to the rotors and keeping them spinning a little at the very end of the landing. In a real auto, that just doesn't happen! It may not seem very important, but it does make some difference at touchdown. Be ready to use ALL the collective you have available, not just what you're accustomed to using!
"The landing," ah, the landing! You can do everything right, but screwup that last 4 or 5 feet and all is for naught! I once served with a UH-1 pilot who had an engine fail at about 8K feet. Saw a nice field to land in and circled it all the way done. Screwed up the last 5 feet and severely damaged the aircraft. When we talked about it later he said he didn't use enough cushioning pitch. That he was used to the amount of collective he had done during training autos and that's what he did. The problem is it was not enough, so he feel like a rock the last 4 or 5 feet, rocked forward on landings, then hit hard coming back down, spread the skids - primarily the aft crosstube - and almost broke the tailboom off at the fuselage. Hey, at least they all lived. A fair amount of folks don't!
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Msg ID:
2722289 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-5
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Author:say wut
3/4/2022 12:02:13 PM
Reply to: 2722286
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screwing up the landing certainly does not mean "all is for naught". if you don't auto, you die. if you auto and screw up the landing, you livet. wt f is wrong with you idiots. |
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Msg ID:
2722292 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +1/-1
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Author:OCONUS IP
3/4/2022 12:17:17 PM
Reply to: 2722289
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Silly me, I thought the goal was to not only live, but safe the aircraft if at all possible. I guess this "idiot" was trained differently than you. That said, I absolutly agree, if the aircraft can't be saved, then it becomes a "life support pod" and the human surviving becomes the primary goal. |
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Msg ID:
2722294 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +2/-1
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Author:OCONUS IP
3/4/2022 12:24:45 PM
Reply to: 2722292
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Oh, and I forgot to mention there are too many folks who screwup the landing and kill themseves in the process. So, the two aren't mutually exclusive; and neither is landing the auto and saving the equipment!
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Msg ID:
2722297 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-4
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Author:you didn't say but I knew it was
3/4/2022 1:01:46 PM
Reply to: 2722294
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coming and it's not remotely true that botched auto landings kill a lot of people. |
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Msg ID:
2722332 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +1/-1
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Author:OCONUS IP
3/4/2022 8:08:23 PM
Reply to: 2722297
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I didn't say "a lot" of people, those are your words, please don't try to put them in my mouth! I said "too many" people. IMHO, even one person who dies screwing up the landing of an auto is "too many." Can we at least agree on that? |
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Msg ID:
2722354 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +1/-1
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Author:You are patient to
3/5/2022 12:45:04 AM
Reply to: 2722332
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The extreme with the stubborn truant. |
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Msg ID:
2722296 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +1/-2
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Author:that is the goal but
3/4/2022 12:59:32 PM
Reply to: 2722292
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you said "ALL is for naught" which is a stupid thing to say because nothing is further from the truth. |
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Msg ID:
2722425 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-1
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Author:Well you’re wrong
3/6/2022 5:43:40 PM
Reply to: 2722292
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The goal is to not get hurt. F**k the helicopter. |
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Msg ID:
2722305 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-2
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Author:wow
3/4/2022 3:19:41 PM
Reply to: 2722286
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You said an engine at idle is still providing some small amount of power to the rotors...
During an autorotation, the needles are split and the rotors are free-wheeling. Free-wheeling means that there is no connection whatsoever between the engine and the rotors.
To say that the engine still provides some power to the rotors is ridiculous, perhaps the stupidest statement ever made on this message board. |
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Msg ID:
2722310 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +1/-0
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Author:if you had actually
3/4/2022 3:38:54 PM
Reply to: 2722305
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done a touchdown auto (in a turbine) you would know that when you cushion the rotor rpm decreases to the point that the needles join and the clutch re-engages and the engine does provide idle power to the rotor. |
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Msg ID:
2722312 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-0
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Author:Sorry
3/4/2022 3:41:28 PM
Reply to: 2722310
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I am just now reading your post, and discovered that I repeated what you said. Imitation is the most sincere form of flattery. |
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Msg ID:
2722313 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-0
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Author:no problem
3/4/2022 3:42:28 PM
Reply to: 2722312
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he probably needs to have it repeated. |
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Msg ID:
2722407 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-1
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Author:good grief
3/6/2022 8:03:10 AM
Reply to: 2722310
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>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>rotor rpm decreases to the point that the needles join
Horse hocky.
If you increase pitch and join the needles at IDLE before you are on the ground, you will wreck the aircraft. Try it. Post the video on youtube.
My first auto was in 1977 and last was in 2013. The one that was due to an actual engine failure was no different from the other several hundred. |
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Msg ID:
2722417 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-1
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Author:We're talking about turbine engines
3/6/2022 1:26:36 PM
Reply to: 2722407
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Pete Gillies has done a few too. Go to about the 5 minute point, listen and learn.
https://rotarywingshow.com/rw73-pete-gillies-helicopter-autorotations/
DISMISSED! |
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Msg ID:
2722584 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-1
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Author:he is wrong
3/8/2022 4:40:11 PM
Reply to: 2722417
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I don't care who what he pretends to be, there is no power going to the rotor.
He is putting out bad information and you believe it.
Show me. Prove it and I'll change my mind. |
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Msg ID:
2722447 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-1
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Author:They Join During The last Part
3/7/2022 1:02:35 AM
Reply to: 2722407
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Of the cushioning collective pitch input. You want to use every bit of useful lift out of the rotors even as they slow to cushion the landing. |
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Msg ID:
2722468 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-1
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Author:another idiot
3/7/2022 8:29:38 AM
Reply to: 2722447
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has thoughts |
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Msg ID:
2722470 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-1
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Author:guess what
3/7/2022 8:53:43 AM
Reply to: 2722447
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they don't join when the engine isn't running. crazy, I know. |
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Msg ID:
2722484 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +1/-1
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Author:He (Olderndirt) Was Talking
3/7/2022 12:46:07 PM
Reply to: 2722470
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About PRACTICE autorotations. Try to keep up, oh dull one. |
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Msg ID:
2722500 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-1
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Author:hell, bro
3/7/2022 4:56:00 PM
Reply to: 2722484
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I don't think old dirt has any idea what he's talking about. |
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Msg ID:
2722311 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +1/-1
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Author:That’s not what he said
3/4/2022 3:39:47 PM
Reply to: 2722305
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He said at low rotor speed. If your throttle (and engine) are at ground idle, and the rotor slow up enough to rejoin needles, the engine WILL drive the rotor at that ground idle speed. |
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Msg ID:
2722322 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-0
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Author:olderendirt
3/4/2022 4:51:32 PM
Reply to: 2722286
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The last thing to mention is that in a training auto the engine is at iIg Ldle and, thus, is providing a little bit of power, albeit a very small amount, to the rotors and keeping them spinning a little at the very end of the landing.
It always seemed to that the aircraft fell faster at the same NR and airspeed sith a dead engine |
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Msg ID:
2722326 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-2
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Author:oh really
3/4/2022 5:48:38 PM
Reply to: 2722322
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congratulations, you just described an idling helicopter. so you had enough engine failures to notice that they "fell faster" lol what a moron |
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Msg ID:
2722343 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +2/-1
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Author:olderendirt
3/4/2022 9:43:11 PM
Reply to: 2722326
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you had enough engine failures to notice that they "fell faster" lol what a moron
1 drive train failure and 1 engine failure.
Training included autos with engine shutdown. |
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Msg ID:
2722327 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-2
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Author:gem of the day
3/4/2022 6:43:44 PM
Reply to: 2722322
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the idling engine keeps the rotors spinning a little bit "at the very end" which is awesome. lol |
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Msg ID:
2722335 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +2/-1
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Author:OCONUS IP
3/4/2022 8:40:01 PM
Reply to: 2722327
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Sure you're right. There couldn't possibly be smarter, more experienced people than you in the industry!
https://rotarywingshow.com/rw73-pete-gillies-helicopter-autorotations/
I direct your attention to about 5:30 and on.
Dude, "it's better to remain silent and be thought a fool, then speak and remove all doubt |
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Msg ID:
2722338 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-2
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Author:This is where you dumb internet
3/4/2022 9:20:51 PM
Reply to: 2722335
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pilots learned everything you know |
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Msg ID:
2722341 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +2/-1
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Author:OCONUS IP
3/4/2022 9:40:20 PM
Reply to: 2722338
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Been flying helicopters (and FW) for 42 years. Probably graduated US Army IERW before you were born. Was privileged to be among the leading edge of Army NVG flying and was selected to attend the UH-1 IP Course as a junior CW2 a little over 2 years later. I've been training helicopter pilots ever since. Was recruited to all my post Army positions, including my current gig, making a very respectable 6 figures (the first figure isn't a 1 BTW). That kind of thing happens when you have a EARNED a good reputation in the industry. Was also sent to a couple of courses at Western Helicopters and blessed to be taught by Pete Gillies himself. Those of you in the industry who didn't have the honor missed out!
So you see, your insults mean nothing to me, because you mean nothing to me. Just saying..... |
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Msg ID:
2722344 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +1/-1
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Author:You have the most internet
3/4/2022 10:15:32 PM
Reply to: 2722341
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pilot credentials of anybody I've met today. |
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Msg ID:
2722352 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +1/-2
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Author:You Got Worked
3/5/2022 12:39:18 AM
Reply to: 2722344
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And you are upset about it. When you lash out, you only highlight your own inadequacies, which are legion. Don't be upset that you were wrong, and were embarrassed to have your nose rubbed in your ignorance. Do learn the right way, and let go of your wrong way habits. |
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Msg ID:
2722372 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-3
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Author:say wut
3/5/2022 11:20:34 AM
Reply to: 2722352
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tell me what I said that was wrong and then maybe I'll be upset |
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Msg ID:
2722385 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +1/-1
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Author:you were wrong,
3/5/2022 2:10:56 PM
Reply to: 2722372
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you know it, we know it, let it go. |
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Msg ID:
2722387 |
Auto's should teach you +0/-1
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Author:Boosted
3/5/2022 2:47:19 PM
Reply to: 2722279
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Where your ROTOR RPM is located.
That Rotor RPM equates to LIFE, yours and those with you
Keep it in the Green!
If I were asked to make a product safety improvement on a Robinson product it would be the width and color of the ROTOR RPM needle to make it easier for the pilot to focus on that life saving instrument FIRST should he or she become startled by anything!
Okay not just a Robinson (Skinny needle offender) but any helicopter maker. |
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Msg ID:
2722336 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +2/-0
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Author:OG
3/4/2022 8:44:14 PM
Reply to: 2722273
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The part of the auto that does the most to protect you and the machine really happens between the failure and 15 to 25 feet above the touchdown point. All failures don't happen over terrain that makes a damage free touchdown possible. Even with perfect area selection, the side of steep terrain, or rough terrain, or wooded terrain may be the best we can do. If we end up at the point of decelaration and initial pitch pull in control, with little forward speed, and a reasonable rate of descent we may sacrafice the aircraft but not ourselves.
Practice touchdown autos are a wonderful traing tool, if for nothing else, to build pilot confidence that, dependent on touchdown area, autorotations are'nt really all that scary. There obviously is potential to damage the aircraft while practing completing a landing following a relatively rare, ie. engine, failure. The military stopped doing full down autos in training, except for initial training, because the threat of engine failure didn't warrant the exposure to training accidents.
I would rather conduct recurrent training with full downs but I can certainly understand companies looking at the statistics of actual engine failures and concluding that traing should concentrate on safely getting the aircraft to the point of decelaration and pass up the full touchdown.
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Msg ID:
2722393 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +1/-2
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Author:wrong
3/5/2022 3:30:05 PM
Reply to: 2722336
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the most important part of an auto is the entry. screw that up and you can forget about the rest of it. |
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Msg ID:
2722390 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-1
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Author:Why
3/5/2022 2:52:07 PM
Reply to: 2722273
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Have you ever done one? If not, stupid question. If you have, way stupid question. |
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Msg ID:
2722402 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-1
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Author:Norcal
3/5/2022 11:48:18 PM
Reply to: 2722273
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Well I'm glad that you all resolved your issues today and you can all now put your Johnsons away. |
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Msg ID:
2722426 |
Bell 407 Autos / Fort Worth +0/-1
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Author:Have all you dumb
3/6/2022 5:58:56 PM
Reply to: 2722402
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mother f**kers figured out how to do an autorotation yet lol |
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