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Msg ID: 2718176 This doesn’t look good for this program  +3/-2     
Author:New York Bell 429 crash update
1/26/2022 12:02:56 PM

http://aerossurance.com/helicopters/hems-b429-nvg-iimc-loc-i/?fbclid=IwAR2Ug2M2x2qmoRgCx_uF49virBaAdtkj26gg6wXW7JsoNUkIc5r0uGIb8QY

Either this pilot does not understand the systems and their aircraft at all and has zero regard for the regulations, or the training department at this program has failed in a major way. Could be a combination of the two.

I understand these are brand new bell 429's with 4-axis autopilots and the vfr pilot knowingly flew into ifr conditions.

How does this happen? Anyone have any insight? 



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Msg ID: 2718177 This doesn’t look good for this program  +3/-1     
Author:how this happens
1/26/2022 12:08:05 PM

Reply to: 2718176

are you for real bro. ntsb reports are full of thousands of how this happeneds



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Msg ID: 2718178 Clearly this is on that pilot. But there are always contributing factors  +11/-2     
Author:With their environment
1/26/2022 12:11:26 PM

Reply to: 2718177

So much wrong with this to utilizing NVG's, not checking weather, continuing to fly into the fog, setting up for an IFR approach as a vfr pilot after cancelling flight following, then decoupling the autopilot when they went inadvertent....this is text book failure and everything we train against doing.



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Msg ID: 2718181 Clearly this is on that pilot. But there are always contributing factors  +0/-2     
Author:he didn't
1/26/2022 12:18:19 PM

Reply to: 2718178

decouple the auto pilot. saying an accident is a "textbook failure" is pretty funny as it's a meaningless statement. I also enjoyed your insightful observation that we train people to avoid crashing. lol



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Msg ID: 2718184 He or she checked every box of what not to do (NT) +2/-1     
Author:Shouldn’t even have a license
1/26/2022 12:25:11 PM

Reply to: 2718181


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Msg ID: 2718187 He or she checked every box of what not to do  +0/-2     
Author:accidents happen
1/26/2022 12:40:20 PM

Reply to: 2718184

let's not try to pretend this is something it's not



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Msg ID: 2718188 No, they don’t “just” happen. Especially in this accident.  +2/-1     
Author:Don’t fool yourself.
1/26/2022 12:43:59 PM

Reply to: 2718187

This was an intentional disregard for the regulations and the training we all receive in the prevention and recovery from IIMC And is an example of complete lack of airmanship. there is no excuse for this, especially if it is in fact a 4-axis autopilot 429 that has a go-around mode.



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Msg ID: 2718191 No, they don’t “just” happen. Especially in this accident.  +1/-3     
Author:oh boy
1/26/2022 12:46:07 PM

Reply to: 2718188

no you're really getting dramatic lol



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Msg ID: 2718192 No, they don’t “just” happen. Especially in this accident.  +0/-2     
Author:I didn't read the part
1/26/2022 12:47:24 PM

Reply to: 2718191

where he intentionally flew into IMC bro



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Msg ID: 2718197 Apparently flying around with scattered clouds about +0/-0     
Author:is IMC to this guy
1/26/2022 12:57:25 PM

Reply to: 2718192

And dumb dumb pilot flew into one of the clouds on the bottom of his approach.  Story/drama over



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Msg ID: 2718201 Why don’t you check the weather at KGBQ for the time he set up for an  +0/-1     
Author:IFR “practice” approach. His words
1/26/2022 1:14:59 PM

Reply to: 2718197

LIFR...everywhere else was reporting CLEAR, and the pilot stated he continued to descend  into the "fog"



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Msg ID: 2718202 KGVQ (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Correction. Still LIFR at the time
1/26/2022 1:15:48 PM

Reply to: 2718201


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Msg ID: 2718298 Why don’t you check the weather at KGBQ for the time he set up for an  +2/-0     
Author:olderendirt
1/27/2022 8:35:32 AM

Reply to: 2718201

'LIFR...everywhere else was reporting CLEAR, and the pilot stated he continued to descend  into the "fog"'


Sometimes you can see down through the fog perfectly well if it's a shallow enough bank. You're only looking down through, say- 100 feet. Then, as you descend into the bank you're trying to see at a slant range that's, what? About 400 feet? And all you see is fog, except straight down....

No doubt continuing the descent was a mistake. Go around, abort the approach if any part of the developing situation is unsatisfactory.



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Msg ID: 2718294 Is it really an “accident” if the pilot knowingly +0/-0     
Author:tuse
1/27/2022 7:53:12 AM

Reply to: 2718265

there is nothing to indicate he flew into the fog intentionally, so that's what I'm going with. you keep saying the med crew said this and the pilot said that...but you have yet to present this bro



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Msg ID: 2718243 Clearly this is on that pilot. But there are always contributing factors  +0/-0     
Author:he didn't decouple
1/26/2022 5:41:47 PM

Reply to: 2718178

and I can't see anything wrong with cancelling ff in vfr. 



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Msg ID: 2718189 This doesn’t look good for this program  +0/-7     
Author:say wut
1/26/2022 12:44:26 PM

Reply to: 2718176

"I understand these are brand new bell 429's with 4-axis autopilots and the vfr pilot knowingly flew into ifr conditions"

congratulations. you can read lol



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Msg ID: 2718190 This doesn’t look good for this program (NT) +1/-0     
Author:Better than the pilot reading the RFM
1/26/2022 12:45:38 PM

Reply to: 2718189


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Msg ID: 2718193 This doesn’t look good for this program  +5/-1     
Author:Dude said
1/26/2022 12:47:50 PM

Reply to: 2718176

He never looks under his goggles. If that's true, he wasn't trained well.



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Msg ID: 2718204 This doesn’t look good for this program  +0/-2     
Author:true. crashing is not a good look
1/26/2022 1:24:33 PM

Reply to: 2718195

lots of programs have VFR pilots flying IFR aircraft. I was one of them. I flew a 135 for 6 months to learn the aircraft, get clearances and practice approaches. I was strongly encouraged to do this. IFR pilots don't grow on trees, you have to make everyone of them from scratch. Some do arrive trained, but they all started somewhere. This guy managed to go IIMC and it ended badly. Hardly an indictment of his training or the program. 



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Msg ID: 2718206 So wrong on your perspective  +2/-1     
Author:Practice approach in VFR-Good
1/26/2022 1:37:48 PM

Reply to: 2718204

Practice approach in IFR as a VFR pilot- not good.

bet you checked weather? Bet you didnt leave clear weather for LIFR to "train" as a VFR pilot. Bet you look under the goggles (how else do you legally claim an HNVGO). Bet you didn't decouple the autopilot. Bet you didn't disregard the recovery procedures. Bet if you had a go around function you would have used it. So many bet you didnt do's, or you would have been at fault for this crash just like this pilot was



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Msg ID: 2718208 So wrong on your perspective  +0/-1     
Author:nobody said he wasn't at fault
1/26/2022 1:45:52 PM

Reply to: 2718206

wuts yur problem



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Msg ID: 2718209 This doesn’t look good for this program  +2/-1     
Author:LOL
1/26/2022 1:48:57 PM

Reply to: 2718176

3500 hours TT in 30 freaking years???? Hang it up buddy. You're not current on anything. That's like 9 hours a month. Sad.



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Msg ID: 2718211 I thought they had BK’s and Agustas at this place (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Where they get 429s
1/26/2022 1:55:08 PM

Reply to: 2718209


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Msg ID: 2718215 This doesn’t look good for this program  +0/-1     
Author:That’s normal flying
1/26/2022 2:25:49 PM

Reply to: 2718209

at many HAA bases



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Msg ID: 2718258 This doesn’t look good for this program  +0/-0     
Author:Yea
1/26/2022 8:36:42 PM

Reply to: 2718215

And my comment still stands. Sad....hell how Can you even call yourself current flying that little?



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Msg ID: 2718277 This doesn’t look good for this program  +0/-1     
Author:...
1/27/2022 1:15:40 AM

Reply to: 2718209


That would be 388 hours per year



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Msg ID: 2718319 This doesn’t look good for this program  +0/-1     
Author:Dumb
1/27/2022 11:16:32 AM

Reply to: 2718277

388X30 is 11,640 r yard....



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Msg ID: 2718224 This doesn’t look good for this program  +0/-1     
Author:let me help you
1/26/2022 3:58:38 PM

Reply to: 2718176

the pilot didn't knowingly fly into IFR conditions. I hope this helps! 



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Msg ID: 2718234 Actually by his statements, the crew statements, and the weather  +2/-1     
Author:me (with furrowed brow and
1/26/2022 4:40:39 PM

Reply to: 2718229

concerned look). I can't help but notice you don't supply any such statements to support this and I have not been able to find any, either. It seems you do not know the difference between the crew reported seeing patchy fog and "knowingly" flying into IMC. If this is not the case, please show your work.

Best regards,

The JH accident investigation team



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Msg ID: 2718236 Actually by his statements, the crew statements, and the weather  +0/-0     
Author:interesting that
1/26/2022 4:49:21 PM

Reply to: 2718234

you use the word knowingly instead of the word intentionally.

from the FAA interview:

"At about 200 feet, he inadvertently entered a fog bank and lost visual reference to the runway."

your turn bro



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Msg ID: 2718244 Actually by his statements, the crew statements, and the weather  +0/-0     
Author:huh
1/26/2022 5:54:57 PM

Reply to: 2718236

it seems that the op "just asking questions" post is based mostly on something he made up.



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Msg ID: 2718299 Pilot states I seen the fog. Pilot continues into it. +4/-0     
Author:olderendirt
1/27/2022 8:37:17 AM

Reply to: 2718251

That's where the mistake lies- continuing the approach.

Sometimes you can see down through the fog perfectly well if it's a shallow enough bank. You're only looking down through, say- 100 feet. Then, as you descend into the bank you're trying to see at a slant range that's, what? About 400 feet? And all you see is fog, except straight down....

No doubt continuing the descent was a mistake. Go around, abort the approach if any part of the developing situation is unsatisfactory.



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Msg ID: 2718276 30 years of flying and only (NT) +2/-0     
Author:3,000+ hours?!?!?!?!
1/27/2022 12:44:11 AM

Reply to: 2718176


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Msg ID: 2718303 30 years of flying and only +0/-3     
Author:some people quit flying and
1/27/2022 9:37:19 AM

Reply to: 2718276

then go back to it. he had 600 in type over 5 years. what are you stupid.



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Msg ID: 2718307 The 'average' annual flight time in HEMS is about 150 hrs annually. +0/-0     
Author:olderendirt
1/27/2022 10:11:44 AM

Reply to: 2718276

The 'average' annual flight time in HEMS is about 150 hrs annually.

It would be reasonable to assume some of those pilots are flying 100 hours a year, or less.

My last program averaged 3 twenty minute legs on each dispatch, an hour total.

If the base flies mostly intra-facility in a significant sized urban area, the flights can be medically justified by traffic and most of which would be compesated.



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Msg ID: 2718285 This doesn’t look good for this program  +0/-1     
Author:Yeah,
1/27/2022 6:38:05 AM

Reply to: 2718176

reallly have to be totally aware what your autopilot is doing and how to shed it.  I rarely used 4 cue, last being power, especially in turbulence.  That said the fact power plus attitude equals performance is something that has to be applied to each maneuver attempted.  Forget it on a go around and you're likely to become a smoking hole, especially if IMC.



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Msg ID: 2718295 How in the heck did the NTSB classify this as a PART 91 flight? +0/-1     
Author:NTSB is useless to get anything right
1/27/2022 8:27:04 AM

Reply to: 2718176

 

file:///C:/Users/Baseuser/Downloads/Report_ERA22LA007_104073_1_27_2022%208_24_49%20AM.pdf

 



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Msg ID: 2718296 better link: +0/-0     
Author:Anonymous
1/27/2022 8:28:18 AM

Reply to: 2718295

 

https://data.ntsb.gov/carol-repgen/api/Aviation/ReportMain/GenerateNewestReport/104073/pdf

 



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Msg ID: 2718300 How in the heck did the NTSB classify this as a PART 91 flight? +0/-1     
Author:olderendirt
1/27/2022 8:39:28 AM

Reply to: 2718295

You can fly under Part 91 in 135 operation, as long as your ops specs allows it and provides rules for doing so.



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Msg ID: 2718301 NOPE, not with medical crewmembers aboard (NT) +0/-1     
Author:(or patients). Part 135!!
1/27/2022 9:02:44 AM

Reply to: 2718300


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Msg ID: 2718302 NOPE, not with medical crewmembers aboard (NT) +0/-0     
Author:here we go
1/27/2022 9:18:38 AM

Reply to: 2718301


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Msg ID: 2718305 Are the medical crew "flight crew"? With specific responsibilities in the  +0/-0     
Author:olderendirt
1/27/2022 10:04:21 AM

Reply to: 2718301

Are the medical crew "flight crew"? With responsibilities in the ops specs? Then their absence can justify Part 91.



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Msg ID: 2718308 No, they are medical crewmembers! Flight crewmembers are (NT) +0/-1     
Author:Pilot, Copilot, Engineer, Navigator
1/27/2022 10:16:36 AM

Reply to: 2718305


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Msg ID: 2718320 "No, they are medical crewmembers!" Ooops, my bad. You are correct. Medical +0/-0     
Author:olderendirt
1/27/2022 11:40:37 AM

Reply to: 2718308

"No, they are medical crewmembers!" Ooops, my bad. You are correct. Medical crew are not Part 91 'flight crew'. I had to leave them for a Part 91 recovery for crew change, to be picked up by my Part 135 relief pilot. 

A second cup of coffee does wonders for me after a short sleep, long night.

Apologies.



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Msg ID: 2718326 "No, they are medical crewmembers!" Ooops, my bad. You are correct. Medical +3/-0     
Author:14CFR Part 1
1/27/2022 1:13:38 PM

Reply to: 2718320

Flightcrew member means a pilot, flight engineer, or flight navigator assigned to duty in an aircraft during flight time.

 

Medical personnel are never considered "flightcrew", ever.



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Msg ID: 2718333 But the wear jackets embroidered with FlightCrew (NT) +0/-0     
Author:and tell everyone they are FlightCrew
1/27/2022 2:41:51 PM

Reply to: 2718326


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Msg ID: 2718830 "No, they are medical crewmembers!" Ooops, my bad. You are correct. Medical +3/-0     
Author:Haa pilot
1/31/2022 7:22:10 PM

Reply to: 2718326

FAA talks out of both sides of their mouth... the medical crew is not technically flight crew but they are considered flight crew as far as night vision goggles, not crew rest or other limitations 

note with AMC medical crew had to log there NVG operations for currency back 8-10 years ago



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Msg ID: 2718311 Rnav approach error +4/-0     
Author:anony
1/27/2022 10:25:56 AM

Reply to: 2718305

Looking at ADSB data and approach charts it appear the pilot did not even attempt to fly the approach properly either.  When he was 4.8NM from the field he changed course from a direct to airport track to a more southerly track as a self vector to intercept the lateral course for RNAV 28.  Aircraft blows through the final course and wags back and only finally captured the course at 1.5NM from the threshold.  The approach plate has the FAF at 4.5NM from the threshold.  Even then the aircraft never appears to get perfectly on course, aircraft never stable on the approach and self vector cut the approach very short.  




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Msg ID: 2718338 Rnav approach error +1/-0     
Author: Biggest
1/27/2022 3:31:59 PM

Reply to: 2718311

problem with improvising approaches is one's normal rhythm of conducting such gets messed up, things get forgotten, aircraft becomes at risk.  Gotta respect the way you learn things and stick to the standards.



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Msg ID: 2718354 Rnav approach error +3/-0     
Author:Ifrgiy
1/27/2022 7:57:14 PM

Reply to: 2718338

his biggest mistake was not using the installed A/P to fly the missed or decoupling the A/P before trying to hand fly.  He was fighting the A/P the whole time during his missed app. 



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Msg ID: 2718423 This doesn’t look good for this program  +0/-0     
Author:FLY BOY
1/28/2022 3:32:29 PM

Reply to: 2718176

FLY THE AIRCRAFT...then fly the aircraft...only crashes when you stop flying under these circumstances.



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Msg ID: 2718435 Bob Hoover said: "Fly the aircraft as far into the crash as you can" (NT) +0/-0     
Author:olderendirt
1/28/2022 3:56:11 PM

Reply to: 2718423


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Msg ID: 2718445 Bob Hoover said: "Fly the aircraft as far into the crash as you can" +1/-2     
Author:we've all heard that a million times
1/28/2022 5:07:01 PM

Reply to: 2718435

I have no idea what it means.



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Msg ID: 2718446 Bob Hoover said: "Fly the aircraft as far into the crash as you can" +1/-0     
Author:You didn’t hear it even once.
1/28/2022 5:14:23 PM

Reply to: 2718445

If you need someone to explain it to you, you haven't been a pilot very long.



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Msg ID: 2718449 Bob Hoover said: "Fly the aircraft as far into the crash as you can" +0/-1     
Author:well biffster
1/28/2022 6:00:59 PM

Reply to: 2718446

I've been pilot for a while but since I haven't crashes, I don't know what it means. You sound pretty knowledgable: how about you explain it to me.



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Msg ID: 2718448 George Carlin Said: "If black boxes survive air crashes -- why don't they (NT) +3/-0     
Author:make the whole plane out of the stuff?"
1/28/2022 5:46:21 PM

Reply to: 2718435


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Msg ID: 2718809 This doesn’t look good for this program  +0/-0     
Author:No
1/31/2022 6:21:03 PM

Reply to: 2718176

one cares.

Period.



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