Msg ID:
2712093 |
Is it OK to have a scheduled takeoff time five minutes after the +0/-0
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Author:termination of required crew rest?
11/30/2021 6:43:33 AM
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The next question will be: Is five minutes enough time for pre-flight planning, pre-flight, start-up, taxi, and takeoff? |
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Msg ID:
2712094 |
Is it OK to have a scheduled takeoff time five minutes after the +0/-1
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Author:Musky
11/30/2021 6:51:51 AM
Reply to: 2712093
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Ok depending on who exactly?
The customer won't really care. Some bean counter nerd at the FAA might raise a few questions though.
What's the question here? Are you inferring that pre-flight duties took place during the "scheduled rest" period? |
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Msg ID:
2712095 |
Fair enough +0/-0
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Author:Anonymous
11/30/2021 7:13:22 AM
Reply to: 2712094
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This refers to the captain coming off crew rest and doing the flight.
In an operation where the safety program is a joke, and the safety officer is just in charge of being thrown under the bus, the FAA might have cause for concern. I think that landing five minutes before entering crew rest and being scheduled for a takeoff five minutes after crew rest is insufficient time for post-flight and pre-flight duties. With this in mind, I infer nothing.
The question is clear. You can draw your own inferences. |
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Msg ID:
2712096 |
Is it OK to have a scheduled takeoff time five minutes after the +0/-0
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Author:Never heard of a scheduled takeoff
11/30/2021 7:20:13 AM
Reply to: 2712094
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in anything other than scheduled air. Take off when you are ready. It's what pilots do. |
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Msg ID:
2712097 |
Never heard of it? Lucky you! +1/-1
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Author:OP
11/30/2021 7:33:51 AM
Reply to: 2712096
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Hopefully, you'll never take a job at a company that does this sort of thing. It appears that you have a solid conception of right, wrong, and safety. Take the job and be the nail that sticks its head up. See what happens. |
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Msg ID:
2712101 |
Never heard of it? Lucky you! +0/-1
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Author:So it has to be part 135
11/30/2021 8:20:08 AM
Reply to: 2712097
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no safety department or anything in place? You are either not given enough time to prepare for the flight or you have to come in before the 10 hours. What kind of operation is it? |
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Msg ID:
2712132 |
Is it OK to have a scheduled takeoff time five minutes after the +3/-1
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Author:It all depends on you..
11/30/2021 10:41:32 AM
Reply to: 2712093
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I have worked for for three large HEMS Providers and I must say that I have seen pressure applied in the sense of take your time but hurry up. I use to react to this and I certainly felt pressured. Then I ran in to some old souls that showed me that you could still get the job done and keep everyone happy even if it took 20 mins longer than the fastest guy or girl at your Base.
As I was told ,, yes there may be some short term noise and discomfort , but it will move on to someone or something else very quickly and your situation will soon be a past memory.
So if I arrive at Base and am told there is a flight pending and I need to move fast etc etc... I agree with everyone go take my normal speed to preflight etc ,, hell I may even pour a cup of coffee before I brief the crew and low and behold I never seem to have an issue where anyone cares or remembers about that need for speed ... and that's for a scene or IFT..
I am sure if I rush and forget to Latch something or make the crew feel rushed , I would still hear about it weeks later.
Just remember we are not as important as we think we are,., and move on. No one will care how slow or fast you are even if you think they do. |
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Msg ID:
2712137 |
Is it OK to have a scheduled takeoff time five minutes after the +0/-2
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Author:I am of the opinion
11/30/2021 11:17:40 AM
Reply to: 2712132
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the crew brief is a complete waste of time since they serve no function in the operation of the aircraft. I quit doing them years ago. I am also of the opinion pouring yourself a cup of coffee and having some bullsh*t crew brief with a flight pending shows contempt for the job. I am also of the opinion this thread isn't even about EMS since I never had a patient flight yet that was scheduled the day before so who gives a sh*t if you like to scratch your balls for a half hour. |
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Msg ID:
2712144 |
Is it OK to have a scheduled takeoff time five minutes after the +0/-0
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Author:Been scratching for 25 years lol
11/30/2021 12:14:36 PM
Reply to: 2712137
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you are correct , I have been scratching my balls for a long time. I also agree if you don't want to do Crew Breifs that's good for you too.. there are many ways to get the job done. I still have no complaints and neither does my company or my crews. I like it like that ... just like the song .. lol |
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Msg ID:
2712150 |
No. And if the superviser/management raises issues, find another job. +3/-0
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Author:olderendirt
11/30/2021 12:55:01 PM
Reply to: 2712093
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There is no way in h@ck I'd fly anything I hadn't preflighted, reviewed the maintenance log.
That's how I got to be an old pilot- take no unnecessary chances. Did someone leave the cap off the tranny oil filler....?
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Msg ID:
2712153 |
No. And if the superviser/management raises issues, find another job. +0/-1
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Author:the cap on the tranny oil filter
11/30/2021 1:25:24 PM
Reply to: 2712150
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yeah, always double check your tranny cap |
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Msg ID:
2712181 |
Old dirt man doesn't know what he's talking about. (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Yes it's OK, as long as it's not Part 91
11/30/2021 4:57:22 PM
Reply to: 2712150
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Msg ID:
2712183 |
Old dirt man doesn't know what he's talking about. +0/-0
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Author:uh, dude
11/30/2021 5:19:04 PM
Reply to: 2712181
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key phrase "crew rest". Think about it. |
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Msg ID:
2712197 |
Show me "crew rest" in the FARs! (NT) +0/-0
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Author: Not very key afterall!
11/30/2021 5:41:51 PM
Reply to: 2712183
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Msg ID:
2712203 |
Show me "crew rest" in the FARs! +0/-0
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Author:not that complicated
11/30/2021 5:57:47 PM
Reply to: 2712197
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Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment. |
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Msg ID:
2712207 |
"Crew rest"? NOT mentioned. Also, that's for 135 flying, not Part 91 (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Was that a pilot asking, or a "crew"?
11/30/2021 6:11:40 PM
Reply to: 2712203
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Msg ID:
2712209 |
"Crew rest"? NOT mentioned. Also, that's for 135 flying, not Part 91 +0/-0
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Author:well why the hell else would he
11/30/2021 6:25:10 PM
Reply to: 2712207
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be bring up crew rest if was 91 you dumb d*ck |
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Msg ID:
2712211 |
Because he's trolling you. Read his arbitrary question again! No mention +0/-0
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Author:of type of OP or who's "scheduled"
11/30/2021 6:51:50 PM
Reply to: 2712209
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Yes, it's OK for Part 91.
No such thing as "crew rest" in civilian world.
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Msg ID:
2712222 |
Because he's trolling you. Read his arbitrary question again! No mention +0/-0
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Author:a student pilot has
11/30/2021 8:45:36 PM
Reply to: 2712211
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thoughts lol |
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Msg ID:
2712252 |
Are you sure you're not angling for a promotion. +0/-0
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Author:Anonymous
12/1/2021 7:29:31 AM
Reply to: 2712211
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You're quibbling over nomenclature to find a loophole around any common sense rest requirements. I'll bet you're practicing how to wink. It will come in handy on those bad weather days.
In this thread, "crew rest" is a generic term meant to describe any rest requirements under any part. |
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Msg ID:
2712304 |
Details matter! Also true with the question! +0/-0
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Author:YES, if OK to schedule takeoff!
12/1/2021 3:41:01 PM
Reply to: 2712252
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Even under Part 135. If you were good to start the flights, you can complete the assignment if it was due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder.
You were being trolled with smelly bait and bit into it!
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Msg ID:
2712306 |
Details matter! Also true with the question! +0/-0
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Author:say wut
12/1/2021 3:50:55 PM
Reply to: 2712304
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it's pretty obvious you don't even understand the question with that answer lol |
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Msg ID:
2712310 |
Details matter! Also true with the question! (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Not the assignment, only the leg
12/1/2021 4:27:24 PM
Reply to: 2712304
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Msg ID:
2712313 |
Assignment! All legs of the assignment. +0/-1
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Author:Not leg by leg assessments.
12/1/2021 4:56:54 PM
Reply to: 2712310
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FAA was going to apy it leg by leg, like they do in Part 222, but they withdrew the NPRM effort after the Part 135 folks (including lots and lots of pilots) raised a lobby stink over it.
So, it is all legs in the assignment. If you are schemed to take off on leg 3 of the assignment and it is after 14 hrs, you can continue if you can show your planning was reasonable, and the delay was beyond your control. |
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Msg ID:
2712315 |
Assignment! All legs of the assignment. +0/-0
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Author:oh yeah, part 222
12/1/2021 4:59:36 PM
Reply to: 2712313
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use of locomotive horns. it's all clear now. lol |
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Msg ID:
2712343 |
Ask autocorrect about that! Not what was typed (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Anonymous
12/1/2021 8:10:54 PM
Reply to: 2712315
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Msg ID:
2712328 |
Assignment! All legs of the assignment. +3/-1
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Author:No Way Has That Reg Ever Been
12/1/2021 6:41:56 PM
Reply to: 2712313
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Interpreted like you are doing. I sat on ground hold for 3 hours trying to launch on a last leg. That would have put us way past 14. Probably more like 16 hours or more of crew day to complete last 135 leg. No way will the FAA give that a pass if there was and accident/incident. |
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Msg ID:
2712402 |
Yes, "WAY". The FAA proposed it leg by leg, but dropped it. +0/-0
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Author:Anonymous
12/2/2021 8:34:19 AM
Reply to: 2712328
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Here is the Notice of Proposed Interpretation to assess the duty day impact on a leg by leg basis, like they do in Part 121:
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2010/12/23/2010-32234/interpretation-of-rest-requirements
And, here is where they withdrew it:
https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2013/11/07/2013-26485/interpretation-of-rest-requirements
The current interpretation is that if your origional planning is reasonable for the entire assignment, and that assignment is delayed for circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder, the assignment my continue beyond the FAR 135.267 duty day restrictions. IOWs, If you are good to start the assignment, you are good to finish the assgnment.
It was true in the Part 121 world also, until the Whitlow letter discussed in the Notice of Proposed Interpretation here, but it was decided, for Part 135 operations, not to use the same standard.
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Msg ID:
2712445 |
Yes, "WAY". The FAA proposed it leg by leg, but dropped it. +0/-0
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Author:They are referring directly to in
12/2/2021 12:24:01 PM
Reply to: 2712402
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Flight delays. Once you get on the ground you have to reset the clock. Are you going to say it's okay to have a 15 hour ground delay? |
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Msg ID:
2712457 |
NOPE, not for Part 135. You didn't actually read the proposal. It is why +0/-1
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Author:FAR 135.263(d) says "assignment"
12/2/2021 1:25:37 PM
Reply to: 2712445
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135.263(d) A flight crewmember is not considered to be assigned flight time in excess of flight time limitations if the flights to which he is assigned normally terminate within the limitations, but due to circumstances beyond the control of the certificate holder or flight crewmember (such as adverse weather conditions), are not at the time of departure expected to reach their destination within the planned flight time.
135,267(d) Each assignment under paragraph (b) of this section must provide for at least 10 consecutive hours of rest during the 24-hour period that precedes the planned completion time of the assignment.
If you are assigned 3 flight legs, your assignment is the whole package. And, if you were good to start the flight assignment, you are OK to finish the assignment, even if it exceeds the 10 hrs rest in 24 hour look-back from the completion of the ASSIGNMENT. It is not a leg-by-leg assessment as was established by the Whitlow intepretation under Part 121. The FAA was going to try and make it a leg-by-leg assessment, as the Notice of Proposed Interpretation indicated, but they withdrew it, letting it fall back to what it was, which was by assignment (not leg-by-leg).
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Msg ID:
2712342 |
Assignment! All legs of the assignment. +0/-1
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Author:Not leg by leg assessments.
12/1/2021 8:07:32 PM
Reply to: 2712310
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FAA was going to apply it leg by leg, like they do in Part 121, but they withdrew the NPRM effort after the Part 135 folks (including lots and lots of pilots) raised a lobbying stink over it.
So, it is *all* legs in the assignment. If you are scheduled to take off on leg 3 of the assignment and it is after 14 hrs, you *can* continue if you can show your planning was reasonable, and the delay was beyond your control.
So, the answer to the OP's question is YES |
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Msg ID:
2712345 |
Assignment! All legs of the assignment. +0/-0
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Author:he's talking about starting the
12/1/2021 8:22:29 PM
Reply to: 2712342
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day not ending it you dumb di*k |
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Msg ID:
2712401 |
If he's starting the day, start the day! What's the problem? +0/-0
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Author:But, that's now what he asked in his...
12/2/2021 8:21:51 AM
Reply to: 2712345
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two part question. The first part was about ending the day! |
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Msg ID:
2712249 |
"Crew rest"? NOT mentioned. Also, that's for 135 flying, not Part 91 +0/-0
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Author:Even flight attendants have
12/1/2021 6:47:47 AM
Reply to: 2712207
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rest requirements. Let's see...pilots and flight attendants both have required rest. Not sure who else is left on board that you could be talking about. If you haven't figured out this is 135 yet, maybe I could draw you a picture. |
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Msg ID:
2712435 |
Not for Part 91 operations, nor for times when its due to reasons (NT) +0/-0
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Author:beyond the control of the operator
12/2/2021 12:06:04 PM
Reply to: 2712249
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Msg ID:
2712184 |
Is it OK to have a scheduled takeoff time five minutes after the +0/-0
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Author:Careless
11/30/2021 5:21:27 PM
Reply to: 2712093
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and reckless,
like insisting life preservers are not required for overwater flight beyond autorotation or SE capability. |
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Msg ID:
2712436 |
happens everyday, and condoned by the FAA (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Yup!
12/2/2021 12:06:56 PM
Reply to: 2712184
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Msg ID:
2712193 |
Why are you only allowing for 5 minutes? (NT) +0/-1
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Author:Don't you get there early enough?
11/30/2021 5:39:30 PM
Reply to: 2712093
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Msg ID:
2712198 |
Why are you only allowing for 5 minutes? +0/-0
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Author:somebody is unfamiliar with
11/30/2021 5:47:22 PM
Reply to: 2712193
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that whole crew rest thing. |
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Msg ID:
2712438 |
Huh? What does rest have to do with taking off +0/-0
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Author:5 minutes into a duty period when
12/2/2021 12:11:24 PM
Reply to: 2712198
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you can get there earlier to accomplish all those things he was asking about?
Ever sit on a commercial airplane waiting for a pilot to show up? Passengers boarded, flight attendants boarded, copilot boarded, just waiting for the Captain? Then, just after he gets there, cabin door shuts, and you are being pushed back from the gate? |
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Msg ID:
2712441 |
Huh? What does rest have to do with taking off +0/-0
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Author:You are missing something
12/2/2021 12:15:10 PM
Reply to: 2712438
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He is talking about minimum rest. That is 10 hours. He is talking about a 14 hour day the previous day. Then 10 hours rest to show at regularly scheduled show time, that the base has designated that time. You can't legally show up early in that scenario. |
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Msg ID:
2712449 |
In that case, he takes off as timely as he can performing all +0/-0
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Author:the tasks required by the FARs
12/2/2021 12:52:28 PM
Reply to: 2712441
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But, now we are talking about a precise premise, which wasn't mentioned in the question itself: Exactly 10 hrs after he previously dutied off.
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Msg ID:
2712452 |
Huh? What does rest have to do with taking off +0/-0
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Author:uh
12/2/2021 1:13:42 PM
Reply to: 2712438
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no, I have never been on a plane that back from the gate immediately after either one of the flight crew arrived. |
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Msg ID:
2712488 |
Then, you've probably never worked on one either (NT) +0/-0
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Author:It happens often
12/2/2021 3:41:23 PM
Reply to: 2712452
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Msg ID:
2712491 |
Then, you've probably never worked on one either +0/-0
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Author:nope, never worked on one
12/2/2021 3:48:45 PM
Reply to: 2712488
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probably take a 100 flights a year. never seen it once. The FO cannot do the checklists by himself. |
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Msg ID:
2712524 |
5he FO can have it all done!!r. Capt arrives, door closes +0/-0
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Author:They are underway, checklist starts
12/2/2021 8:44:20 PM
Reply to: 2712491
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Checklists are flows, do-confirm types.
I know this because I've worked this. I've waited for captains commuting in from a delayed arrival. And, they've waited for me, commuting.
It happens more often than you think |
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Msg ID:
2712369 |
Is it OK to have a scheduled takeoff time five minutes after the +0/-0
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Author:Does it matter?
12/2/2021 12:16:17 AM
Reply to: 2712093
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Your 10 hours of rest is required. No activities for flight duties: preflight, weather checks, etc. are allowed until 10 hours of rest. So be a professional and follow the regs. |
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Msg ID:
2712396 |
Is it OK to have a scheduled takeoff time five minutes after the +0/-0
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Author:anony
12/2/2021 7:55:07 AM
Reply to: 2712369
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Previous employer Part 135 charter/tours in NYC, we had it in our GOM that you needed to have at least 30 minutes prior to skids up from duty in for preflight duties and at the end you have to land with 15 minutes before you duty out for post flight paperwork. The 10 hours was factored in. Guy has a tripped scheduled for a 0900 pickup from JRB? Ok he needs to land at 0850, taking off 0845, starting aircraft at 0840, they would give a 0800 start time and make sure the pilot was sent home to begin his rest no later than 2200 the night before. |
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Msg ID:
2712398 |
Now we're getting somewhere. +0/-0
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Author:Anonymous
12/2/2021 8:05:22 AM
Reply to: 2712396
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This is an example of an enlightened process that demonstrates both clear thinking and a concern for safety. |
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Msg ID:
2712617 |
If Med, managers, are worried about T/O time (NT) +0/-0
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Author: send by ground
12/3/2021 5:19:44 PM
Reply to: 2712398
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Msg ID:
2712701 |
Is that a theoretical question or a practical question? (NT) +0/-0
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Author:Anonymous
12/4/2021 6:51:56 PM
Reply to: 2712093
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