As an employee. But not medical rights, or medical privacy.

Last time I peed in a bottle for them they asked what prescribed medication I was taking. Now what's this about medical privacy?

Not!

Well you told us, now have you told your employer? Let us know how that goes. 

Happened to follow the science and the scientists?
https://humanevents.com/2021/09/27/3000-doctors-scientists-accuse-covid-policy-makers-of-crimes-against-humanity/

More than 6,270,000,000 doses given worldwide...

393,000,000 doses in the U.S.

56% of the population of the US is fully vaccinated

Only 892 Confirmed reports myocarditis or pericarditis (Treatable).

Only 8164 reports of death from Vaccine, However that is all reported deaths after receiving and NOT confirmed to be from the actual vaccine. But even still...

Out of 393,000,000 doses, only 9,056 people MAY have died or been "injured" from the vaccine, just in the US.

P.S... Total COVID deaths in the US = 698,000

Total deaths worldwide = 4,550,000

How many COVID deaths were people who would have died from almost any insult to their health (elderly, obese, other comorbidities)?

How many deaths were labeled as "COVID" when they died of a different cause but happened to have had COVID prior to death?

If the vaccine is effective, why are cases going up along with the vaccination rate?

If the vaccine is safe, why do the manufacturers continue to claim liability protection for adverse reactions?

How many adverse reactions have not been reported?

Why are proven thera peutics being suppressed? (I know it's one word, but apparently it also includes the word r*pe)

Why are vaccine skeptics (including doctors and scientists) being censored?

Lots of credibility problems with the whole situation. If this vaccine were clearly a good thing, no mandates, pressures in the form of restricted freedoms, or threats to employment would be necessary.

https://rumble.com/vn5p7v-sen-ron-johnson-they-lied.html

https://rumble.com/vn6wa5-sen-ron-johnson-wi-senate-floor-september-30-2021.html

How many COVID deaths were people who would have died from almost any insult to their health (elderly, obese, other comorbidities)? Sooooo, we should just not count them because they were more succeptable to COVID? That doesn't make any sense...

How many deaths were labeled as "COVID" when they died of a different cause but happened to have had COVID prior to death? It's not that simple now is it? How can you prove that COVID didn't exacerbate that prior problem they had. Can you prove that they might have survived had they not gotten COVID? (Completely understand there is the opposite argument to have here).

If the vaccine is effective, why are cases going up along with the vaccination rate? Because in our haste to "return to normal" and our outcry from people saying "I HAVE MUH RI'TE's" Not wearing masks and basically saying YOLO and F everyone else, and from people having the mindset that "Well, if everyone else is vaccinated, then why do I need it?" We have let our entire population down.

If the vaccine is safe, why do the manufacturers continue to claim liability protection for adverse reactions? Is there proof out there that they actually are? Is there any court precident currently that they have been sued and won because of liability protection? (Fox news, CNN, Washington Post, OAN, etc... do not count as proof).

How many adverse reactions have not been reported? Why would you not report an adverse reaction? If you are really trying to prove that this was bad, and you were really trying to help people by warning them that the vaccine was bad, wouldn't you want to report it? Also, you the patient might not be required to report it, but if you show up to the hospital and seek treatment for an adverse reaction the Dr's, Nurses, and Hospital are required by law to report it, they can lose their licenses and jobs by not reporting. Even if it's not COVID related. Flu shot, Measles, Mumps, Hep, etc... all required by law to be reported.

Why are proven thera peutics being suppressed? (I know it's one word, but apparently it also includes the word r*pe) Do you have proof that ACTUAL, real, tested treatments are being suppressed? (Again, major media sources do not count). I assure you that Dr. and Nurses are doing everything they possibly can with proven and safe methods to save your life. You really think they would suppress something if it saving your life? Remember that whole legal thing about losing your job and license? They can not treat you with off the wall non-proven methods. That's called assault.

Why are vaccine skeptics (including doctors and scientists) being censored? Proof of LEGIT doctors being censored? Not the Podiatrist from across the street. But legit virologist, or epidemeologiest?

Lots of credibility problems with the whole situation. If this vaccine were clearly a good thing, no mandates, pressures in the form of restricted freedoms, or threats to employment would be necessary. If this was handled appropreately from the very begining from ALL sides then there shouldn't have been this trust situation. But now that it's out there, how do you get people to do the right thing for the greater good of the american population without forcing them? Do we just let people die because "I HAVE MUH RI'TE's?" Should we just allow the people to not get the vaccine and then allow those same people to take up a hospital bed from a person that didn't have COVID and ultimately might have survived had they been able to get that bed instead? Actions have consiquences, and so does no action, which is the right one?

How many COVID deaths were people who would have died from almost any insult to their health (elderly, obese, other comorbidities)? Sooooo, we should just not count them because they were more succeptable to COVID? That doesn't make any sense...
    The point is that without proof of causality, those numbers are pointless. Do you know how many people have died within a week of eating green beans? Anything can be made to sound horrifying.


How many deaths were labeled as "COVID" when they died of a different cause but happened to have had COVID prior to death? It's not that simple now is it? How can you prove that COVID didn't exacerbate that prior problem they had. Can you prove that they might have survived had they not gotten COVID? (Completely understand there is the opposite argument to have here).
   You seem to understand my point, which is that simply spouting “numbers” is meaningless unless those numbers are attached to a clear and thorough definition.

If the vaccine is effective, why are cases going up along with the vaccination rate? Because in our haste to "return to normal" and our outcry from people saying "I HAVE MUH RI'TE's" Not wearing masks and basically saying YOLO and F everyone else, and from people having the mindset that "Well, if everyone else is vaccinated, then why do I need it?" We have let our entire population down.
   You’re trying too hard to jam your bias into this. Cases are going up along with the vaccination rate because the vaccine is not effective. I think we’re learning that we can’t make a COVID vaccine any better than we can make the flu shot. If that’s the case, suppressing thera peutics to force compliance with the vaccine is literally killing people and prolonging the pandemic.

If the vaccine is safe, why do the manufacturers continue to claim liability protection for adverse reactions? Is there proof out there that they actually are? Is there any court precident currently that they have been sued and won because of liability protection? (Fox news, CNN, Washington Post, OAN, etc... do not count as proof).
   It’s common knowledge. The sources you mention often provide their sources, as does CNBC here so you can check for yourself: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html

How many adverse reactions have not been reported? Why would you not report an adverse reaction? If you are really trying to prove that this was bad, and you were really trying to help people by warning them that the vaccine was bad, wouldn't you want to report it? Also, you the patient might not be required to report it, but if you show up to the hospital and seek treatment for an adverse reaction the Dr's, Nurses, and Hospital are required by law to report it, they can lose their licenses and jobs by not reporting. Even if it's not COVID related. Flu shot, Measles, Mumps, Hep, etc... all required by law to be reported.
   https://youtu.be/obdI7tgKLtA?t=450

Why are proven thera peutics being suppressed? (I know it's one word, but apparently it also includes the word r*pe) Do you have proof that ACTUAL, real, tested treatments are being suppressed? (Again, major media sources do not count). I assure you that Dr. and Nurses are doing everything they possibly can with proven and safe methods to save your life. You really think they would suppress something if it saving your life? Remember that whole legal thing about losing your job and license? They can not treat you with off the wall non-proven methods. That's called assault.
   If you haven’t noticed suppression and censorship of proponents for HQC, ivermectin, and other treatments that have been in use for a long time, you’re just out of touch.

Why are vaccine skeptics (including doctors and scientists) being censored? Proof of LEGIT doctors being censored? Not the Podiatrist from across the street. But legit virologist, or epidemeologiest?
   You want proof of things that can’t be seen anymore? That’s the whole point of the censorship. If someone counters the chosen narrative, they can be shut down because, “you’re wrong, no one is saying that.”

Lots of credibility problems with the whole situation. If this vaccine were clearly a good thing, no mandates, pressures in the form of restricted freedoms, or threats to employment would be necessary. If this was handled appropreately from the very begining from ALL sides then there shouldn't have been this trust situation. But now that it's out there, how do you get people to do the right thing for the greater good of the american population without forcing them? Do we just let people die because "I HAVE MUH RI'TE's?" Should we just allow the people to not get the vaccine and then allow those same people to take up a hospital bed from a person that didn't have COVID and ultimately might have survived had they been able to get that bed instead? Actions have consiquences, and so does no action, which is the right one?
   You don’t get to force people to “do the right thing.” Fascist/communist approaches don’t work with everyone. Not everyone is persuaded through fear mongering. Honesty and transparency go a long way. Pharmaceutical companies who are profiting wildly off this pandemic should be open to liability for any adverse reactions their product causes. Denying those who don’t take the vaccine medical treatment, employment, freedom to conduct business, freedom to travel, and so forth is unconstitutional and is dividing our country. It is exactly the authoritarianism the left ridiculously accused Trump of being. It is exactly the opposite of what our country was founded as. The science on COVID and the vaccine is hardly settled. Science is never “settled.” Nor has the cause of this pandemic been appropriately accounted for.  Everyone’s situation is different, which is why in America, everyone is free to make the decision that is best for him or her. It’s communist nations where the government uses various levers of power to force its decisions on everyone.

Dude's head you were replying to. But it was a valiant and gallant effort.

How many COVID deaths were people who would have died from almost any insult to their health (elderly, obese, other comorbidities)? Sooooo, we should just not count them because they were more succeptable to COVID? That doesn't make any sense...
    The point is that without proof of causality, those numbers are pointless. Do you know how many people have died within a week of eating green beans? Anything can be made to sound horrifying. I agree, numbers are pointless without a definition. However, we have a definition. COVID is a real thing. and it kills people. You can't seperate out those that might have survived without COVID from those that died because of COVID. Physiologically we have a pretty good understanding of what COVID does to the body and it's pretty safe to assume cause of death. Do I agree that all of those deaths were caused specifically by COVID? No, but it's just as hard to prove that they weren't.  


How many deaths were labeled as "COVID" when they died of a different cause but happened to have had COVID prior to death? It's not that simple now is it? How can you prove that COVID didn't exacerbate that prior problem they had. Can you prove that they might have survived had they not gotten COVID? (Completely understand there is the opposite argument to have here).
   You seem to understand my point, which is that simply spouting “numbers” is meaningless unless those numbers are attached to a clear and thorough definition. See my response above.

If the vaccine is effective, why are cases going up along with the vaccination rate? Because in our haste to "return to normal" and our outcry from people saying "I HAVE MUH RI'TE's" Not wearing masks and basically saying YOLO and F everyone else, and from people having the mindset that "Well, if everyone else is vaccinated, then why do I need it?" We have let our entire population down.
   You’re trying too hard to jam your bias into this. Cases are going up along with the vaccination rate because the vaccine is not effective. I think we’re learning that we can’t make a COVID vaccine any better than we can make the flu shot. If that’s the case, suppressing thera peutics to force compliance with the vaccine is literally killing people and prolonging the pandemic. You are equally making a fallacy and injecting bias by your own opinion saying that the vaccine is not effective. The fact that we are having variants of the virus that mutate to make our vaccines ineffective is due to our inability to agree that this is bad and that it requires effort on both sides to fight this.

If the vaccine is safe, why do the manufacturers continue to claim liability protection for adverse reactions? Is there proof out there that they actually are? Is there any court precident currently that they have been sued and won because of liability protection? (Fox news, CNN, Washington Post, OAN, etc... do not count as proof).
   It’s common knowledge. The sources you mention often provide their sources, as does CNBC here so you can check for yourself: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html  That is an interesting article. I have to say though that it appears that the drug companies themselves are not asking for the immunity. It seems to me like they said they could do it, but would require the immunity to make it cheaper and faster. Therefore the government is who offered up the immunity. The mRNA vaccine technology has been around for decades (I can't find the exact paper I was reading with the first time mRNA was used) but it's been around for a long time. It has been looked at in the past for other vaccines and has undergone other human trials. The CDC is a little misleading in saying this is a "new" vaccine. It hasn't been looked at as a viable option until now due to the cost and equipment required to produce. But with the funding provided by the government the companies were able to actually produce fairly quickly. Therfore this isn't something new and never before seen and we are not human test subjects.

How many adverse reactions have not been reported? Why would you not report an adverse reaction? If you are really trying to prove that this was bad, and you were really trying to help people by warning them that the vaccine was bad, wouldn't you want to report it? Also, you the patient might not be required to report it, but if you show up to the hospital and seek treatment for an adverse reaction the Dr's, Nurses, and Hospital are required by law to report it, they can lose their licenses and jobs by not reporting. Even if it's not COVID related. Flu shot, Measles, Mumps, Hep, etc... all required by law to be reported.
   https://youtu.be/obdI7tgKLtA?t=450

Definitely NOT a reliable source! First paragraph from google: "Project Veritas is an American far-right activist group founded by James O'Keefe in 2010.  The group produces deceptively edited videosof its undercover operations,which use secret recordingsin an effort to discredit mainstream media organizations and progressive groups. Project Veritas also uses entrapmentto generate bad publicity for its targets,and has propagated disinformation and conspiracy theoriesin its videos and operations."

Why are proven thera peutics being suppressed? (I know it's one word, but apparently it also includes the word r*pe) Do you have proof that ACTUAL, real, tested treatments are being suppressed? (Again, major media sources do not count). I assure you that Dr. and Nurses are doing everything they possibly can with proven and safe methods to save your life. You really think they would suppress something if it saving your life? Remember that whole legal thing about losing your job and license? They can not treat you with off the wall non-proven methods. That's called assault.
If you haven’t noticed suppression and censorship of proponents for HQC, ivermectin, and other treatments that have been in use for a long time, you’re just out of touch. There is a reason Drs. are not using the drugs you mention. Ivermectin is an anti-parasite, (COVID is not a parasite). Hydroxychloroquine is an immunosuppresive, which has actually been tested on COVID and shows through real scientific trials that it does not have any effect on COVID. I assure you, I am not out of touch. 

Why are vaccine skeptics (including doctors and scientists) being censored? Proof of LEGIT doctors being censored? Not the Podiatrist from across the street. But legit virologist, or epidemiologist?
   You want proof of things that can’t be seen anymore? That’s the whole point of the censorship. If someone counters the chosen narrative, they can be shut down because, “you’re wrong, no one is saying that.” That is a 2-way street, maybe those people are being censored because it is false information?

Lots of credibility problems with the whole situation. If this vaccine were clearly a good thing, no mandates, pressures in the form of restricted freedoms, or threats to employment would be necessary. If this was handled appropriately from the very beginning from ALL sides then there shouldn't have been this trust situation. But now that it's out there, how do you get people to do the right thing for the greater good of the American population without forcing them? Do we just let people die because "I HAVE MUH RI'TE's?" Should we just allow the people to not get the vaccine and then allow those same people to take up a hospital bed from a person that didn't have COVID and ultimately might have survived had they been able to get that bed instead? Actions have consequences, and so does no action, which is the right one?
   You don’t get to force people to “do the right thing.” Fascist/communist approaches don’t work with everyone. Not everyone is persuaded through fear mongering. Honesty and transparency go a long way. You want honesty and transparency however you are not willing to listen to the honesty and transparency because it doesn't align with your chosen narrative.

Pharmaceutical companies who are profiting wildly off this pandemic should be open to liability for any adverse reactions their product causes. Something we agree on.

Denying those who don’t take the vaccine medical treatment, employment, freedom to conduct business, freedom to travel, and so forth is unconstitutional and is dividing our country. Never once has any hospital denied medical treatment to someone for not being vaccinated without getting in trouble for it. Those companies have every right to deny someone from working there without the vaccine, It's called freedom. A business has every right to tell someone they can't shop there, don't like it? shop somewhere else? That's freedom. The airlines have every right to deny someone from boarding because they are not vaccinated, don't like it? Choose another airline. Oh, yes there is that freedom again. Wouldn't it also be unconstitutional to say those business' must conduct their business in a way the government chooses? Isn't your argument the very definition of hypocritical?

It is exactly the authoritarianism the left ridiculously accused Trump of being. I always just thought Trump was a man child that couldn't even spell authority, much less know how to use it. (P.S. I don't like Biden either )

It is exactly the opposite of what our country was founded as. But is it though? Our country was founded on being hypocritical?

The science on COVID and the vaccine is hardly settled. Science is never “settled.” Nor has the cause of this pandemic been appropriately accounted for. Yaaay! Again something we agree on.

Everyone’s situation is different, which is why in America, everyone is free to make the decision that is best for him or her. Agree, but remember that applies both ways. Just because you are free to make a decision, doesn't mean that decision doesn't come with consequences. I.e. being denied boarding an airline.

It’s communist nations where the government uses various levers of power to force its decisions on everyone. I don't think you fully understand the meaning or values of communism. Can you even name the only 5 countries in the world that are ACTUALLY communist countries? (Don't cheat)

How refreshing, two individuals with two different opions on a very serious matter yet they can discuss both sides of the problem without resorting to name calling or the usual nasty comments.

Numbers, I appreciate the discussion thus far, and I think we can understand one another, if not agree. I think we'll get past this pandemic. When we do, we'll all have to face what we revealed about ourselves in the way we treated others during this time.

I don't mind discussing this further, but since the format is getting distracting, please start a fresh thread if you want to continue. Assuming the mods will permit it. It's not strictly political, but it is also influencing this, and every other, industry. Your forum though.

How many COVID deaths were people who would have died from almost any insult to their health (elderly, obese, other comorbidities)? Sooooo, we should just not count them because they were more succeptable to COVID? That doesn't make any sense...
    The point is that without proof of causality, those numbers are pointless. Do you know how many people have died within a week of eating green beans? Anything can be made to sound horrifying. I agree, numbers are pointless without a definition. However, we have a definition. COVID is a real thing. and it kills people. You can't seperate out those that might have survived without COVID from those that died because of COVID. Physiologically we have a pretty good understanding of what COVID does to the body and it's pretty safe to assume cause of death. Do I agree that all of those deaths were caused specifically by COVID? No, but it's just as hard to prove that they weren't.  
    Sounds like we agree that numbers are nice, but only if you can determine the story behind them. The story behind the data we have is not at all clear.  I think it’s likely that a large percentage of COVID deaths would also be dead today if COVID never happened.

How many deaths were labeled as "COVID" when they died of a different cause but happened to have had COVID prior to death? It's not that simple now is it? How can you prove that COVID didn't exacerbate that prior problem they had. Can you prove that they might have survived had they not gotten COVID? (Completely understand there is the opposite argument to have here).
   You seem to understand my point, which is that simply spouting “numbers” is meaningless unless those numbers are attached to a clear and thorough definition. See my response above.

If the vaccine is effective, why are cases going up along with the vaccination rate? Because in our haste to "return to normal" and our outcry from people saying "I HAVE MUH RI'TE's" Not wearing masks and basically saying YOLO and F everyone else, and from people having the mindset that "Well, if everyone else is vaccinated, then why do I need it?" We have let our entire population down.
   You’re trying too hard to jam your bias into this. Cases are going up along with the vaccination rate because the vaccine is not effective. I think we’re learning that we can’t make a COVID vaccine any better than we can make the flu shot. If that’s the case, suppressing thera peutics to force compliance with the vaccine is literally killing people and prolonging the pandemic. You are equally making a fallacy and injecting bias by your own opinion saying that the vaccine is not effective. The fact that we are having variants of the virus that mutate to make our vaccines ineffective is due to our inability to agree that this is bad and that it requires effort on both sides to fight this. 
   I would think that the prevalence of break-through cases would be adequate evidence that the COVID vaccine is ineffective. How many break-through cases of polio, smallpox, measles, etc. do you hear about?

Your desire to personify COVID is a tell for your bias. COVID does not “know” or “care” whether people” agree that it's bad.” That’s the political narrative being pushed. If the world submits to whatever agreement you deem necessary, COVID is not going to think, “Alright, now that everyone agrees I am bad, I’ll stop mutating now.”  COVID mutates because it is a virus. We may learn that mass vaccinations (instead of targeted vaccinations of those most at risk) is encouraging mutations. Blaming those who don't get the vaccine is political rhetoric unsupported by anything scientific, so far as I have seen.

If the vaccine is safe, why do the manufacturers continue to claim liability protection for adverse reactions? Is there proof out there that they actually are? Is there any court precident currently that they have been sued and won because of liability protection? (Fox news, CNN, Washington Post, OAN, etc... do not count as proof).
   It’s common knowledge. The sources you mention often provide their sources, as does CNBC here so you can check for yourself: https://www.cnbc.com/2020/12/16/covid-vaccine-side-effects-compensation-lawsuit.html  That is an interesting article. I have to say though that it appears that the drug companies themselves are not asking for the immunity. It seems to me like they said they could do it, but would require the immunity to make it cheaper and faster. Therefore the government is who offered up the immunity. The mRNA vaccine technology has been around for decades (I can't find the exact paper I was reading with the first time mRNA was used) but it's been around for a long time. It has been looked at in the past for other vaccines and has undergone other human trials. The CDC is a little misleading in saying this is a "new" vaccine. It hasn't been looked at as a viable option until now due to the cost and equipment required to produce. But with the funding provided by the government the companies were able to actually produce fairly quickly. Therfore this isn't something new and never before seen and we are not human test subjects. 
   Glad you found the article interesting. It's also old. I think granting regulatory waivers to pharmaceutical companies on an emergency basis had its justifications. They wouldn’t risk the investment required for R&D to develop a vaccine without those waivers. But that doesn’t address the credibility problem for the government to force it on people (insisting it's safe) but not allow recourse for adverse reactions. If it's 100% safe, they don't need liability protection.  If it's not 100% safe, people are entitled to opt out. America should not be run like Jonestown.

How many adverse reactions have not been reported? Why would you not report an adverse reaction? If you are really trying to prove that this was bad, and you were really trying to help people by warning them that the vaccine was bad, wouldn't you want to report it? Also, you the patient might not be required to report it, but if you show up to the hospital and seek treatment for an adverse reaction the Dr's, Nurses, and Hospital are required by law to report it, they can lose their licenses and jobs by not reporting. Even if it's not COVID related. Flu shot, Measles, Mumps, Hep, etc... all required by law to be reported.
   https://youtu.be/obdI7tgKLtA?t=450

Definitely NOT a reliable source! First paragraph from google: "Project Veritas is an American far-right activist group founded by James O'Keefe in 2010.  The group produces deceptively edited videosof its undercover operations,which use secret recordingsin an effort to discredit mainstream media organizations and progressive groups. Project Veritas also uses entrapmentto generate bad publicity for its targets,and has propagated disinformation and conspiracy theoriesin its videos and operations."
   Your initial response came across as gaslighting, basically saying: “You can't possibly think the reporting laws aren't being followed 100%.” Sure I can. The video I provided is anecdotal, but shows that it's not at all unreasonable to wonder how often adverse reactions are not reported and tracked.

Why are proven thera peutics being suppressed? (I know it's one word, but apparently it also includes the word r*pe) Do you have proof that ACTUAL, real, tested treatments are being suppressed? (Again, major media sources do not count). I assure you that Dr. and Nurses are doing everything they possibly can with proven and safe methods to save your life. You really think they would suppress something if it saving your life? Remember that whole legal thing about losing your job and license? They can not treat you with off the wall non-proven methods. That's called assault.
If you haven’t noticed suppression and censorship of proponents for HQC, ivermectin, and other treatments that have been in use for a long time, you’re just out of touch. There is a reason Drs. are not using the drugs you mention. Ivermectin is an anti-parasite, (COVID is not a parasite). Hydroxychloroquine is an immunosuppresive, which has actually been tested on COVID and shows through real scientific trials that it does not have any effect on COVID. I assure you, I am not out of touch.  
   Studies can be structured to support a narrative. If a study gives struggling patients a thera peutic on their deathbed, weeks after getting COVID and nothing can help them, they conclude “thera peutics don’t work.” However, studies and empirical evidence show that thera peutics work very well when administered early. That should be encouraged, not suppressed. I assume thera peutics serve break-through cases just as well.

And re: your objection to ivermectin, are you saying that a drug is only allowed to do one thing? If an anti-parasitic aids recovery from COVID, why would you argue against it? Give it a new name when used to treat COVID if you must, but don’t take away a tool that works, just because it was originally designed for something else.

Why are vaccine skeptics (including doctors and scientists) being censored? Proof of LEGIT doctors being censored? Not the Podiatrist from across the street. But legit virologist, or epidemiologist?
   You want proof of things that can’t be seen anymore? That’s the whole point of the censorship. If someone counters the chosen narrative, they can be shut down because, “you’re wrong, no one is saying that.” That is a 2-way street, maybe those people are being censored because it is false information?
   “Big Brother” deciding what will be censored greatly adds to the credibility problem. It's not what Americans expect or tolerate from their government. It makes it look like someone with something to lose has something to hide. They consider opposing views as opponents to shout down rather than debate them.

Lots of credibility problems with the whole situation. If this vaccine were clearly a good thing, no mandates, pressures in the form of restricted freedoms, or threats to employment would be necessary. If this was handled appropriately from the very beginning from ALL sides then there shouldn't have been this trust situation. But now that it's out there, how do you get people to do the right thing for the greater good of the American population without forcing them? Do we just let people die because "I HAVE MUH RI'TE's?" Should we just allow the people to not get the vaccine and then allow those same people to take up a hospital bed from a person that didn't have COVID and ultimately might have survived had they been able to get that bed instead? Actions have consequences, and so does no action, which is the right one?
   You don’t get to force people to “do the right thing.” Fascist/communist approaches don’t work with everyone. Not everyone is persuaded through fear mongering. Honesty and transparency go a long way. You want honesty and transparency however you are not willing to listen to the honesty and transparency because it doesn't align with your chosen narrative.
   There's no substance here for me to respond to so I can only say, “I disagree.“

Pharmaceutical companies who are profiting wildly off this pandemic should be open to liability for any adverse reactions their product causes. Something we agree on.
   Great, along with points presented above.

Denying those who don’t take the vaccine medical treatment, employment, freedom to conduct business, freedom to travel, and so forth is unconstitutional and is dividing our country. Never once has any hospital denied medical treatment to someone for not being vaccinated without getting in trouble for it. Those companies have every right to deny someone from working there without the vaccine, It's called freedom. A business has every right to tell someone they can't shop there, don't like it? shop somewhere else? That's freedom. The airlines have every right to deny someone from boarding because they are not vaccinated, don't like it? Choose another airline. Oh, yes there is that freedom again. Wouldn't it also be unconstitutional to say those business' must conduct their business in a way the government chooses? Isn't your argument the very definition of hypocritical?
   You proposed withholding medical service from those who don't have the COVID vax. See your comments above about who should and should not get a hospital bed.

Re: your twisted comments on freedom: The freedom you’re talking about, that of business owners, is exactly what is being denied. Yes, companies are allowed to fire employees.  But is it really freedom when business owners are forced to fire employees for not getting injected…because if they didn't they would be fined out of business by the government? Do you think all businesses want to be forced to fire those employees? That's no kind of freedom I've ever heard of.

I agree that if a company want to ban certain customers and employment candidates, they are free to do so. It doesn’t match up with anti-discrimination laws on other issues companies must abide by, but that’s another topic.

Re: airlines, when government regulation mandates air travel requirements, that's not a decision by the airline. It is an authoritarian mandate applied to all airlines.

It is exactly the authoritarianism the left ridiculously accused Trump of being. I always just thought Trump was a man child that couldn't even spell authority, much less know how to use it. (P.S. I don't like Biden either )
   I share your mistrust of media. The politicization of the media is another part of the credibility problem re: the vaccine. I wonder how the news would be covering vax mandates, people getting fired for refusing, etc. if  Trump were doing it. Our entire lives would be different because the news narrative would be different. That’s a scary and unfortunate reality.

It is exactly the opposite of what our country was founded as. But is it though? Our country was founded on being hypocritical?
   Are you being intentionally obtuse to avoid comparing how our government is operating with how the founders designed it to operate? COVID is a gift for those who hate that the Constitution limits their power.

The science on COVID and the vaccine is hardly settled. Science is never “settled.” Nor has the cause of this pandemic been appropriately accounted for. Yaaay! Again something we agree on.
   If that's the case, creating consequences to enforce against people who decide against the current (ineffective and risky) vaccine is inappropriate and unwise.  

Everyone’s situation is different, which is why in America, everyone is free to make the decision that is best for him or her. Agree, but remember that applies both ways. Just because you are free to make a decision, doesn't mean that decision doesn't come with consequences. I.e. being denied boarding an airline.
   It's unethical (taxation without representation) for taxpayers to fund airports, security, regulatory agencies, airline bailouts…only to have government say, “thanks for the taxes but you can't fly unless you submit to an injection. “

It’s communist nations where the government uses various levers of power to force its decisions on everyone. I don't think you fully understand the meaning or values of communism. Can you even name the only 5 countries in the world that are ACTUALLY communist countries? (Don't cheat)
   If you're about to give a defense of the "values" of authoritarian government,  I very much want to hear it. And you can dazzle me with the answer to your trivia question.

Numbers, I appreciate the discussion thus far, and I think we can understand one another, if not agree. I think we'll get past this pandemic. When we do, we'll all have to face what we revealed about ourselves in the way we treated others during this time. I do think we are closer on agreeing than not. I'm definitely not what I would consider a leftist. But I also don't fit in with the right either. In all honesty I absolutely hate how this whole situation as well as most things nowadays are political. I like to consider and truly listen to all opinions and beliefs and argue the points from all sides since that's how, in my opinion, we can best learn to live and care for each other as a whole. I very much appreciate your stance and only wish there were more people out there willing to just listen and give true thought to each other and maybe just try to see it from their eyes. As to revealing ourselves, I completely agree. I've lost friends, both due to death and just due to beliefs, because of this pandemic and that is the unfortunate part of all of this. In my opinion absolutes and immediate snap judgements will be the eventual downfall of our population.  

I don't mind discussing this further, but since the format is getting distracting, please start a fresh thread if you want to continue. Assuming the mods will permit it. It's not strictly political, but it is also influencing this, and every other, industry. Your forum though. I'm okay leaving as it stands currently. I do have some responses, but I think as I said above we agree more than we disagree and it's not exactly the best form for having this kind of discussion. Not to mention it is just taking me an increasing amount of time to respond and let's face it, we both have actual lives we should be living.

Thank you for the discussion and I hope you have clear skies and tailwinds; Or, dog $#!t weather and movie days. Whatever you're desire is.

Same to you in thanks for being willing to listen, and the importance of avoiding absolutes. Being "anti-mandate" does not mean I don't want a medical solution to COVID. I just doubt that a vaccine (current ones in particular) is it. I'm willing to cut leaders a lot of slack as they make decisions under uncertainty. But I cannot tolerate politicians and unelected administrators who use a pandemic or other crisis as cover for making fundamental changes to our country. The Founders were wise to recognize that the flaws of human nature will endure everything a nation experiences, and tried to structure the government accordingly.

I'm sorry and sympathize with you and those who have experienced losses from COVID that hit closer to home than I have experienced. I hope We the People, as well as our government, manage to reach the other side of this better rather than worse. Part of that will be knowing how it happened, and assurances that it won't happen again. The lack of an explanation after nearly two years is disturbing.

Take care of yourself and those closest to you. The more who do, the better off we'll be.

thats yer problem 

personal rights do not include endangering others, or being a willful dumb schittt.

 a Bristow pilot who did 45 years with them and never, ever, picked up the Ops Manual, not once.  True dat.

I know who it is - still kicking in retirement.  Good fellow.