Click here to close
New Message Alert
List Entire Thread
Msg ID: 2668906 Throttle(s) location +11/-0     
Author:Happily Retired
11/13/2020 2:22:03 PM

After reading the thread about the 109 crashing on the elevated helipad and the replies about the location of the throttles, I started wondering why do most twin engine helicopter have the the throttle levers mounted on the overhead console. I understand there are exceptions to this, i.e. 212/412, EC,s 135/145. Maybe the manufacturer figured on always having a 2 pilot crew.

If throttle(s) manipulation is time critical in certain emergencies, locating them on the console in close proximity to the collective, it seems would further a quicker response action. But, then you consider the twist grip, you already for most purposes have your hand on the throttles.

I will admit, I've never flown a twin engine with overhead throttles, only twist grip. 212/412. 

I'm just throwing this out there to hoping to start a conversation on the ifs, ands or buts about the subject.

 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2668910 Throttle(s) location +9/-1     
Author:CFIIGS
11/13/2020 2:41:46 PM

Reply to: 2668906

I don't have "the" answer, but I know there is also a perceived advantage to the throttles being mounted up high in view of the crew when it pertains to attempting to prevent takeoff with only one engine at flight. Also it can be more obvious to the crew which throttle to pull if so required in an EP. That said, short of TR failures, there isn't a rush to close a throttle in any emergency and pilots should take their time identifying and slowly closing that throttle to begin with.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2668918 Throttle(s) location +14/-2     
Author:Yay!!!
11/13/2020 3:37:16 PM

Reply to: 2668910

Finally, something helicopter related!

 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669035 BUT unfortunately still tied to  +1/-0     
Author:HEMS
11/13/2020 10:43:59 PM

Reply to: 2668918

Which most are sick of on here



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669239 BUT unfortunately still tied to  +1/-0     
Author:Must be
11/15/2020 2:11:31 PM

Reply to: 2669035

something about this HEMS HAA thing given how many posts are alive and well.  You missing anything?



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2668994 Throttle(s) location +2/-1     
Author:overhead throttles
11/13/2020 9:04:02 PM

Reply to: 2668910

simplify linkage/cable arrangement, just that simple.....same arrangement in seaplanes with high mounted wings.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669098 Throttle(s) location +1/-0     
Author:CFIIGS
11/14/2020 1:50:09 PM

Reply to: 2668910

Forgot to add....

My preference is for throttles mounted to the collective. Yes, I have flown helicopters with both throttle configurations.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669153 Throttle(s) location +0/-2     
Author:Lazy Jerk
11/14/2020 9:54:45 PM

Reply to: 2668910

Overhead is not very helpful in ensuring throttle are both forward, most just glance and say to themselves 'Yep the throttles are still there' with out really looking to se they are forward.

On the collective it is the hand that does the checking



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2668970 Throttle(s) location +0/-0     
Author:Question
11/13/2020 6:23:18 PM

Reply to: 2668906

I have no time in the Grand but in the E Power the two overhead power levers were a backup.   Two "rheostat" switches on the rear of the pedestal were the primary engine controls:  Off, Start/Idle, Fly.  I take it the S/Grand does not have this arrangement?  



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2668981 Throttle(s) location +0/-0     
Author:question
11/13/2020 7:41:34 PM

Reply to: 2668970

Yes, the S/Grand has the same arrangement. The 2 power management switches, (PMS) for short are used to start, fly and shutdown. Throttles are a backup if the electric PMS switch fails.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669015 But the Main Point is.... +3/-0     
Author:Anonymous
11/13/2020 10:04:12 PM

Reply to: 2668981

...that if you lose T/R thrust at a hover or at slow airspeed and start spinning, you don't have a quick, easy, and therefore likely way of getting the engine torque off the the rotor, and therefore stopping the spin. Period. Twist-grip throttles on the collective, on the other hand, offer a readily available means of "splitting the needles" and therefore stopping the spin. That is the key to successful handling of this particular emergency, instead of spinning around until you lose control by disorientation and/or g-forces and slamming the aircraft into the ground...which is exactly what you see in the videos of this LA accident. 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669027 But the Main Point is.... +1/-0     
Author:OG
11/13/2020 10:28:53 PM

Reply to: 2669015

I totally agree that overhead throttles are a problem when it comes to loss of thrust. I believe, in twins, overheads are on balance a better choice. The earlier posts points about the need for speed during most emergencies is over rated. It's far more important to get the correct throttle.

The advantage of overheads with a two pilot crew is significant. The major advantage is both pilots can observe and verify any throttle movement before it happens. I've  done plenty of instruction in 212s and 412s. One thing that is common, and very difficult to change, is the average pilot applies so much throttle friction that it is almost impossible to roll either throttle back without removing some friction. This can be a two handed requirement and dramatically slows down the process.

In any case, in my opinion, overheads or collective throttles will both work fine. Just take the time to sort thru how throttles will be used in an emergency.   



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669097 But the Main Point is.... +0/-0     
Author:Anonymous
11/14/2020 1:40:23 PM

Reply to: 2669015

Very likey what happened in a TwinStar accident while backing off of a rig in the GOM years ago. Tailrotor drive failed and the pilot couldn't reach up to cut the throttles while holding on to the collective. Aircraft spun into the water. 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669102 In the 80's I lost the tail rotor while in hover in  +1/-3     
Author:an S-76
11/14/2020 2:20:29 PM

Reply to: 2668906

I had the throttles slammed off at 1/4 into the rotation



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669104 In the 80's I lost the tail rotor while in hover in  +3/-0     
Author:yeah
11/14/2020 2:30:45 PM

Reply to: 2669102

sure you did



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669127 If you had been taught properly +0/-1     
Author:you would know
11/14/2020 6:30:11 PM

Reply to: 2669104

The first quarter turn is not violent.

Even if you were wrong and it was not a tail rotor failure, maybe a gust that made it feel like loss of tail rotor, you got the power off.

Recover rpm on the ground, and continue.

Have had that happen a couple of times, explained to the boss why we quickly brought the power off and set it back down. Everyone happy, we move on.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669128 If you had been taught properly +0/-1     
Author:Uh no
11/14/2020 6:33:41 PM

Reply to: 2669127

Lol what a dumb post



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669129 By all means counter it, show me (NT) +0/-0     
Author:where I am wrong
11/14/2020 6:39:01 PM

Reply to: 2669128


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669106 In the 80's I lost the tail rotor while in hover in  +1/-0     
Author:yeah
11/14/2020 2:36:59 PM

Reply to: 2669102

sure you did



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669110 In the 80's I lost the tail rotor while in hover in  +1/-0     
Author:Good thing
11/14/2020 3:11:08 PM

Reply to: 2669102

you stopped it early.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669130 If you are always ready for it, is a rather simple  +0/-0     
Author:manuver
11/14/2020 6:45:09 PM

Reply to: 2669110

Now in the case of the 109, he was much higher, than a hover, but you still have to do it. First quarter turn get that power off. The outcome of hitting with the power off is much preferable to power on.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669131 If you are always ready for it, is a rather simple  +0/-0     
Author:"manuver"
11/14/2020 7:10:45 PM

Reply to: 2669130

Gud job, bro



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669240 If you are always ready for it, is a rather simple  +1/-0     
Author:Unless
11/15/2020 2:13:27 PM

Reply to: 2669130

you're looking at falling six stories - ah, the dilemna.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669139 In the 80's I lost the tail rotor while in hover in  +0/-0     
Author:Is that you
11/14/2020 7:57:08 PM

Reply to: 2669102
Q.D. McDraw?


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669146 Throttle(s) location (NT) +0/-1     
Author:Utiliguy
11/14/2020 8:43:38 PM

Reply to: 2668906


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669178 Throttle(s) location +1/-0     
Author:Nodoginfight
11/15/2020 7:11:48 AM

Reply to: 2668906

Remember also many new generation helicopters that have a true FADEC system do not have throttles at all, example being EC155.  There are OFF IDLE ON engine switch position and they are on an overhead panel and with a safety guard.  i don't know if the fenestron system is less prone to TR failure over conventional designs.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669183 Throttle(s) location +2/-0     
Author:CFIIGS
11/15/2020 8:12:10 AM

Reply to: 2669178

Or the lovely EC130 which has FADEC, but the throttle on the collective is the flight/idle switch.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2669300 what’s the beef with that? +0/-1     
Author:Anonymous
11/15/2020 9:43:59 PM

Reply to: 2669183

true the panel switch is a start switch and the collective "twist" control is just an idle or flight selector (there is no intermediate position), but with antitorque failure at a hover or slow speed, twisting it from flight to idle will "split the needles" and remove torque from the rotor, at which point the fuselage rotation will stop and a hovering auto can be done.



Return-To-Index