Click here to close
New Message Alert
List Entire Thread
Msg ID: 2595881 ASAP vs NASA ASRS (there really is a difference in +4/-0     
Author:the protections they provide)
10/4/2019 4:46:38 PM

ASAP FAQ

What is the difference between the FAA NASA ASRS and ACSF-ASAP reports?

NASA ASRS is an anonymous, voluntary reporting program. When a report is submitted, it goes into a database managed by NASA that helps identify system-wide safety issues. Filing a report with NASA provides a waiver of sanction from FAA action, should FAA learn about the event independently, i.e., an altitude deviation. In this case, FAA can initiate administrative action against you, and your ASRS report receipt will provide a waiver from any imposed penalty, e.g., a license suspension; however, the administrative action will become part of your FAA file/record.

ASAP, on the other hand, is a confidential, voluntary reporting program. When you submit a report into ASAP, an event review committee works to determine the root cause of the event with your input, in order for the company to make any corrective actions that will help prevent a recurrence of the event and improve safety in your operation. A de-identified copy of your report goes into a database to help identify critical safety issues. Should the FAA learn about your event outside of ASAP, and your report has been accepted into ASAP, you are only obligated to participate in any corrective action that results. There is no FAA administrative action for reports accepted into ASAP.

The whole focus of ASAP is to determine the root cause of an event and not to place blame. The ASAP database cannot be accessed through a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request and is not reportable under PRIA.

 

-------

If someone is telling you one is the same as the other, that person doesn't know what he is talking about!



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595882 reference: +0/-0     
Author:Anonymous
10/4/2019 4:47:21 PM

Reply to: 2595881

https://www.acsf.aero/asap-program/asap-faq/

 

 </p>



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595883 Here's more: +0/-0     
Author:Anonymous
10/4/2019 4:49:35 PM

Reply to: 2595881

Once again, although ASRS can protect against fines, revocations, and suspensions, it does not provide blanket immunity from legal enforcement actions. These FAA enforcement actions will remain on a pilot’s record for five years.

 

https://www.arwalpa.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/ASAP-vs.-ASRS.pdf

<p> 

 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595885 ASAP vs NASA ASRS (there really is a difference in +0/-2     
Author:Nice try. That is ONLY IF
10/4/2019 4:55:32 PM

Reply to: 2595881

the report is accepted. If it is not, the Pilot is subject to ANY penalty dished out by the FAA. ASAP is a benefit to the company because having it can mitigate their liability and penalty for violations. But the company (certficiate holder) is still violated for every pilot violation while operating under that certficiate. If the pilot ASAP is accepted, then the company gets to mitigate and receives a reduction in penalty or none at all. That is WHY the company wants ASAP. It is not a substitute and in fact when you complete an ASAP report you can selectively also and simultaneoulsy submit a NASA form. Stop trying to confues the two and SCARE pilots into believeing that ASAP is a free pass to be a screw up. Its NOT! Pilots have lost absolutely NOTHING by pulling out of ASAP.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595888 ASAP vs NASA ASRS (there really is a difference in +0/-0     
Author:Even with accepted reports
10/4/2019 4:57:37 PM

Reply to: 2595885

action has been taken against the pilot and certificate holder depending on the infraction or violation. ASAP is a fluff myth to protect the company, not the pilot



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595891 You are missing the big point: +3/-0     
Author:Anonymous
10/4/2019 5:29:32 PM

Reply to: 2595888

With ASAP, action is taken by the ERC, and stays internal and there is no FAA record of enforcement action (its all administrative actions).   

 

With ASRS, it is not internal and enforcement actions are on the pilot's record, just no fines, suspensions can be issued if the report is accepted.

 

Those are two very big differences.   Giving up ASAP to make a point was giving up some very important benefits to the pilots all to make a minor point that gained nothing over what it was prior.

AIDMOR are a fact of life in aviation air carrier operations.   They go by many different names, but they are mandatory, and have always been mandatory for specific events.   It has been in writing for years (not just with this company-cave perception).   Many airlines call them 'Captain's Reports'.     They are mandatory because already a known (not single source).   Same with ASAP.    Filling out an ASAP report after the fact does not grant immunity for many issues.   Only single-source reports MUST be accepted.

The benefit for ASAP reports is that if it is accepted, it's corrective action (aka, discipline) is controlled by the ERC.   With AIDMOR, same thing.    A pilot filling out an AIDMOR for something, doesn't mean they will not be corrected if their actions are not IAW procedure.   And, in many cases, ignoracne of such procedure is no excuse to skip discipline.   That's what the union if trying to get:  Immunity from discipline for filling out an AIDMOR.   It is lunacy to think you will get that, and worse to think giving up ASAP pilot protections is a good way to leverage for it.   Lunacy!

The company continues to operate.  They continue to ask for reports explaining faults.   And, they will continue to discipline where needed to correct the problems.   The pilot has enforcement protection with ASAP.  They don't now!

You gave away the horse that pulls the plow!



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595901 You are missing the big point: +0/-1     
Author:What action
10/4/2019 7:03:36 PM

Reply to: 2595891

What are you mongo’s doing that you are so worried about.  20 years flying and following the rules and I could give a sh!!!!!!t about ASAP or NASA or whatever.   Follow the rules and try to be a professional, morons.  



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595911 Another point +2/-0     
Author:just-a-normal human being
10/4/2019 8:05:33 PM

Reply to: 2595901

Any pilot who has  been flying for 20 years, and never thought he might better "cover his axx" with an ASRS Report because he busted an altitude, made a wrong turn, crossed an active rwy, mis-read a clearance, etccc, etc,  that individual is:

1) God

2) Incredibly better than any ofl the professional airline pilots I flew with for 33 years

3) A walking ego-maniac

4) an accident waiting to happen due to pitifully naive overconfidence



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595942 You are missing the big point: +0/-1     
Author:Wrong again Company man
10/4/2019 10:55:47 PM

Reply to: 2595891

Wrong in many levels. Pilots lose nothing. Union lost nothing. Company on the other will be under some serious scrutiny very soon. This hurts the company far more than any pilot. 

The point was made and the union won when the company issued the new policy. Fact. To the FAA and an arbitrator the “agreement” is irrelevant. The company put it out, in writing as a policy, and will be held to that standard. Who got played here...the company. Ego dug the whole and impulsivity kicked them in it. 

Your first two paragraphs are not true in their totality. If the FAA takes action for information contained in an ASAP report, it does go on your record. ASAP is not mandatory in the industry and is specifically a company report with an agreement that in the big picture only piggy backs onto the NASA report, if the pilot chooses to do so. Obviously you have never sat in on an ERC meeting with the FAA and company and seen how the process actually works compared to how you think it works. As usual the way you think things should be, is not actually the way they are.

union never wanted free passes from discipline. Several of their emails stated that. Not to mention the union wrote the new policy the company put out, so your ignorance is clearly on display again. The union wanted SMS and safety reports to stay exclusive to safety. If something were to be deemed an event worthy of discipline all the company would have to do is request evidence separate from the SMS collection sources, investigate it fairly, and continue on.

company discipline proceedings and FAA safety programs should not be used interchangeabley and at the sacrifice of the protections or repercussions of either. You just don’t get it.....   



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595950 You are missing the big point: +1/-0     
Author:Why?
10/5/2019 12:51:51 AM

Reply to: 2595942

Why are you so eager to “hurt” the company. In case you haven’t heard, the helicopter industry is a tough one to survive in. I don’t want to hurt the company. I want them to do well and be profitable so that I have a job and they have money to pay me. How about we just do our jobs professionally and everyone wins. 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595958 You are missing the big point: +0/-2     
Author:Letís talk hurt
10/5/2019 7:49:48 AM

Reply to: 2595950

How many bases has AMC closed? How many pilots have been disciplined without merit? How many terminated without cause? How many families left wondering if their pilot will have a job when placed on admin leave with no reason as to why and not even given a chance to defend themselves? What about the reputations destroyed when put on admin leave to investigate a bogus complaint against a pilot because a Med crew has it out for them? Or when a pilotvis disciplined for an incident related to a med crew, but the med crew walks free and clear? What about equality of pilots?

Everyone wants to be successful and professional. That can’t happen when one person and one group has total control of your life depending on how they feel that day And refuses to follow rules to avoid these problems to begin with.

if The company treated pilots fairly and respectfully, and like professionals, they wouldn’t need or deserve a union. Good pilots pilots who have done the right thing have been wronged by the company without any merit and it all boils down to one person and a handful of managers. Fix them. Fix the problem with the company culture.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595964 You are missing the big point: +0/-0     
Author:CEO
10/5/2019 8:40:43 AM

Reply to: 2595958

BK cool aid!



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595993 You are missing the big point: (NT) +0/-0     
Author:British Knights throwback!!!
10/5/2019 11:47:03 AM

Reply to: 2595964


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595981 Sound like its a union problem if it can't defend an unjust (NT) +0/-0     
Author: firing/discipline of one of it's pilots
10/5/2019 10:59:38 AM

Reply to: 2595958


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595994 Sound like its a union problem if it can't defend an unjust (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Union hasnít lost one in 2 years!!
10/5/2019 11:47:25 AM

Reply to: 2595981


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596004 So, what you complaining about? Justice prevails (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Anonymous
10/5/2019 11:57:48 AM

Reply to: 2595994


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596007 So, what you complaining about? Justice prevails (NT) +0/-0     
Author:#Keep109Great #Winning
10/5/2019 12:06:43 PM

Reply to: 2596004


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596022 109 isn't great when it is jeopardizing pilot's rights (NT) +0/-0     
Author:under ASAP for an ego trip
10/5/2019 1:20:30 PM

Reply to: 2596007


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596023 besides,, you haven't won anything! (NT) +0/-0     
Author:You forfeited by walking off the court
10/5/2019 1:22:43 PM

Reply to: 2596022


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596387 besides,, you haven't won anything! (NT) +0/-0     
Author:AMC failed to show up
10/7/2019 12:37:01 PM

Reply to: 2596023


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596696 besides,, you haven't won anything! (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Victory by default
10/9/2019 11:12:42 AM

Reply to: 2596387


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595966 You are lost there little union leader +0/-0     
Author:HUGE DIFFERENCE btwn ASAP/ARSA
10/5/2019 9:19:47 AM

Reply to: 2595942

The pilots lose protections!   That is a fact!    ASAP is not ARSA.  If it were, there would be no need for ASAP.   Union pilots don't sit on the ARSA board (there is not ARSA board).   It starts with a FAA violation, and the pilot can use an ARSA receipt to lessen (limit) the FAA enforcement actions, but FAA enforcement actions are processed and they go onto the pilot's public record.    ASAP stays in the administrative realm, and a fellow pilot sits on the ERC and helps to mitigate any infractions before a consesus is reached to administratively reprimand/retrain the pilot in question.   The sanction is not an enforcement action against the pilot, but an administrative one.   BIG DIFFERENCE! 

The company didn't issue a NEW policy.  It simply restated the same policy it had, all along, in different words so someone with a hard time comprehending could understand it better.   NOTHING CHANGED in the 'new' policy!   The same right to discipline/punish/terminate exists as it did before.    A report that reveals problems with the reportee not comprehending/using existing written procedure needs to be addressed.   You seem to have a problem with that calling it "punishment', where the company and the FAA call it "retraining".   It it was determined to be a willful violation, they always had the right to discipline/terminate, and stated now they still do have such right.   NOTHING CHANGED!

 

There is a HUGE difference between ASAP and ARSA with regard to violations.   Under ASAP, if the FAA persues matters, the pilot may get an ADMINISTRATIVE action (letter of correction, warning notice).   Under ARSA for the same event, if the FAA persues matters, the pilot may get ENFORCEMENT action.   

From the FAA Order 2150.3C:

c. Aviation Safety Action Program.

(1) General. The ASAP is a program under which covered employees of certificate-holding entities with an ASAP are encouraged to voluntarily report safety information that may aid in identifying potential precursors to accidents. The ASAP precludes the FAA from using any report accepted under the program as a basis for legal enforcement action. The ASAP precludes companies from using accepted ASAP reports as a basis for disciplinary action against the reporting employee. Reports accepted by the FAA in accordance with the ASAP are protected from release to the public under 14 C.F.R. part 193. The FAA does not accept ASAP submissions if they involve reports of intentional disregard for safety, or intentional falsification, substance abuse, controlled substances, alcohol, or criminal matters.  An event review committee (ERC): reviews and analyzes reports to determine whether they qualify for inclusion in the ASAP; identifies actual or potential problems from the information contained in the reports and proposes solutions for those problems; and conducts an annual review of the ASAP database to determine whether corrective actions have been effective in preventing or reducing the recurrence of targeted safety-related events.

(2) Applicability. ASAPs are intended for air carriers that operate under 14 C.F.R. parts 121 and 135 and major domestic repair stations certificated under 14 C.F.R. part 145. Other certificated entities may apply for an ASAP, and the FAA will evaluate the applicant to determine whether the applicant has adequate resources to maintain ASAP quality control. (3) Guidance. Guidance about the ASAP is contained in AC 120-66, as amended (located at http://rgl.faa.gov), and FAA Order 8900.1, volume 11 (located at https://www.faa.gov/regulations_policies/orders_notices).

 

d. Aviation Safety Reporting Program.

(1) General. The ASRP is a program under which an individual may report any information they believe discloses an unsafe condition in the national airspace system. The reports are made to National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA), which will not release to the FAA any report that might reveal the identity of any individual involved in an occurrence or incident. Under 14 C.F.R. § 91.25, the FAA is prohibited from using ASRP 09/18/18 2150.3C 3-5 reports, i.e., both the identification strip and the body of the report, in any legal enforcement action, except information concerning accidents or criminal offenses excluded from the ASRP or unless the individual waives its protections.

(2) Sanction waiver. Under the ASRP, the FAA waives the imposition of a sanction for a violation if an individual other than a passenger files a timely report, provided that: (i) the violation was inadvertent and not deliberate; (ii) the violation did not involve a criminal offense, accident, or action under 44 U.S.C. § 44709, that discloses a lack of qualification to hold a certificate; and (iii) the individual who committed the violation has not been found to have violated an FAA statutory or regulatory provision for five years prior to the date of the violation. The finding of violation need not result from adjudication. For example, the finding could result from an unappealed FAA order that has become final. (3) Guidance. Guidance about the ASRP is contained in Advisory Circular AC 00-46, as amended (located at http://rgl.faa.gov).

(4) Legal enforcement actions under ASRP. When FAA enforcement counsel determines that an individual qualifies for a waiver of imposition of sanction under the ASRP, the FAA issues an order of suspension or order of civil penalty, as appropriate, that includes the factual allegations, findings of any regulatory violations, the sanction, a statement that the sanction associated with the finding of violations is waived, and appropriate appeal rights, if applicable (e.g., the order is not the product of a settlement waiving appeal).

 

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Order/FAA_Order_2150.3C_with_CHG_1.pdf

 

Under ASAP, the pilot is protected from ENFORCEMENT ACTION by the FAA and given ADMINISTRATIVE remedy instead.   Under ARSA, the pilot is subject to ENFORCEMTN ACTION by the FAA, has no ADMINISTRATIVE remedy, and is merely given waiver from sanctions. 

HUGE DIFFERENCE!



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595988 You are lost there little union leader +1/-0     
Author:And you prove the point of the fight
10/5/2019 11:27:24 AM

Reply to: 2595966

The company intentionally evading and violating rights that would be afforded to pilots via ASAP and NASA through other “safety” programs like AIDMOR and Report360. They have been using these “other” reports to administer discipline to pilots when the sane incident was accepted by the ERC-FAA through the ASAP program. This is a huge violation of the way that the program was accepted by the FAA and the more than a handful of cases provided to the FAA raised their concerns enough to start inquiries. AMC has been abusing its power and the SMS for some time now, disguising programs exclusive for administrative and disciplinary action as ” “safety programs,” in attempt to shade them from this legal, regulatory, and contractual violations.  That time has ran out. 

Alot has changed. Maybe if you had some intimate knowlefge of the programs and how they are executed you would understand. But, you prove time and time to only be a keyboard warrior and google attorney. 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595997 ASAP never protected pilots from discipline +0/-0     
Author:unless it was sole-source!
10/5/2019 11:49:34 AM

Reply to: 2595988

You've mistaken non-sole-source for sole-source.   ASAP is about protecting pilots from CERTIFICATE ACTIONS, not company discipline.   If something occured that requires an AIDMOR (ie, a mandadory AIDMOR submission), it's already not sole-source, obviously.  I dare you to point out any mandatory report that a pilot can hide from the company that they wouldn't find out about second hand!   And, if the FAA feels an incident important enough to open a SEPARATE investigation, it is their right as addressed in the ASAP Advisory Circular -and- the FAA Compliance Enforcement Program (FAA Order 2150.3C).   They must have determined it was either intentional, willful, or a question of a Qualification Issue.   

 

Nothing has changed over the years.  

 

You just forfeited the pilots protections for your crusade against normalcy



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2595999 ASAP never protected pilots from discipline +0/-0     
Author:Absolutely proving the point again.
10/5/2019 11:53:52 AM

Reply to: 2595997

Keep ASAP exclusive to SMS and AIDMOR for company administrative purposes, just don’t say it is “voluntary reporting” and a functional part of SMS. Because it is not. The problem is that the company was using ASAP items to discipline pilots as a sole source, not as part of any discovery or investigation. Using Infirmatin from ASAP violates the program and its acceptance by the FAA. Start a company investigation and gave it, but don’t corrupt safety to justify wrongfully dusciplining or during pilots without any cause or merit. FAA agrees, and I trust their input far more than your search engines.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596011 ASAP never protected pilots from discipline +0/-0     
Author:Burp
10/5/2019 12:32:36 PM

Reply to: 2595999

and... at the end of the day EMS/HAA sucks the proverbial ding dong!



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596013 Impossible! +0/-0     
Author:Anonymous
10/5/2019 12:39:05 PM

Reply to: 2595999

 The problem is that the company was using ASAP items to discipline pilots as a sole source, not as part of any discovery or investigation.

 

That is impossible, unless the ASAP program itself was corrupt and the folks on the ERC too (which is a criminal offense, btw).   If the ASAP report was sole-source, the company would not know about it unless you had a rat in the system, or the report didn't qualify for sole-source exemptions because it was intentional, willful, or qualification based.   

 

IOW, you are not very convincing, particularly since you made about ASAP reports now, instead of AIDMOR reports.   

Pulling out of ASAP hurts the pilots more than it hurts anyone else!



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596016 Impossible! +0/-0     
Author:Ding ding ding
10/5/2019 12:57:42 PM

Reply to: 2596013

Now you’ve got it!! That is exactly what was happening. The company corrupted the system. 

Pilots lose nothing....get Over yourself



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596020 The ERC corrupted the system. That's a problem with (NT) +0/-0     
Author:the ERC, not the company!
10/5/2019 1:16:37 PM

Reply to: 2596016


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596021 Did the union file a complaint with the FAA about its (NT) +0/-0     
Author:ERC? I doubt it!
10/5/2019 1:19:27 PM

Reply to: 2596020


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596388 ASAP vs NASA ASRS (there really is a difference in +1/-0     
Author:ASAP.FOQA.ERC.GONE equals
10/7/2019 12:38:46 PM

Reply to: 2595881

AMC SMS non extistant until they re-apply and get an acceptance letter. Which without Union endorsement and cooperation will get them a level 3 SMS at MAX!!! 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596408 Incorrect! They still have and SMS/ASAP/FOQA (NT) +0/-0     
Author:with or without the Union
10/7/2019 2:49:37 PM

Reply to: 2596388


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596409 The ONLY difference now is that the PILOTs don't (NT) +0/-0     
Author:have protection from FAA enforcement
10/7/2019 2:50:41 PM

Reply to: 2596408


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596695 The ONLY difference now is that the PILOTs don't +1/-0     
Author:NASA form provides same protections
10/9/2019 11:12:15 AM

Reply to: 2596409

From enforcement. You fail to recognize ASAP is based on acceptance and if it’s not accepted you lost those protections. From a certificate standpoint ASAP and NASA provide the exact same for the pilot. The company loses with no ASAP becayse now their certificate is vulnerable. Administratively the ASAP has onprotection and is supposed to be strictly for safety and voluntary self reporting.as usual, you lack knowledge and application of these systems 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2596705 Incorrect! They still have and SMS/ASAP/FOQA +1/-0     
Author:WRONG
10/9/2019 11:45:54 AM

Reply to: 2596408

You should the approval letter and agreement before you speak out ignorance again



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2597152 Got the approval letter. Don't got the cancellation letter. (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Only gibberish letter from Union
10/13/2019 8:39:01 AM

Reply to: 2596705


Return-To-Index