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Msg ID: 2586441 Army Aviation... +20/-5     
Author:...will never change.
8/7/2019 9:39:21 AM

Just read an article explainping why pilots are leaving the Army in-mass. The bottom-line is the Army’s top brass are holding the mentality: “Soldier first, Officer second, aviator 3rd.”. 40 years ago I too left Army Aviation for EXACTLY THE SAME REASON! Best decision I ever made and went on to a very satisfying & profitable flying career. To anyone entering aviation I would recommend either staying away from the Army or if no other options are available, use it as a starting point & understand the experience will largely be miserable.

Msg ID: 2586442 Army Aviation... +5/-1     
8/7/2019 9:43:52 AM

Reply to: 2586441

army leadership is garbage . They are reaping what they have sewn! 

Msg ID: 2586445 Army Aviation... +4/-0     
Author:Then get out, go in the Guard
8/7/2019 9:49:14 AM

Reply to: 2586442
and see what a goat screw that is.

Msg ID: 2586450 How many years living in the woods, defending +6/-2     
Author:Our own perimeter with 11 enlisted
8/7/2019 10:00:55 AM

Reply to: 2586441
"Train like you fight". Right.

Army aviation should be at a secure Airfield. Not playing in the mud with a few enlisted soldiers providing security.

Every year at JRTC we would get easily overrun. Big shock.

Come on Army.

Msg ID: 2586456 Army “Leadership”.... (NT) +4/-1 can’t fix stupid.
8/7/2019 10:35:32 AM

Reply to: 2586450

Msg ID: 2586516 Army “Leadership”.... +5/-0     
8/7/2019 2:07:03 PM

Reply to: 2586456

I agree but what is stupid is leadership do not put everyone on an equal footing with respect to support.  

Being a soldier is just that, and that mentality does come first for all individuals, or else. 

If ur a pilot and get a ground attack, inside the wire, at your base, like we did in Vietnam, you'll become an infantry soldier for real very fast, and it ain't for kicks and grins, guaranteed. 

Accept that or get out.  That's the soldiers choice.

The idea Army leadership put soldiers ((i.e. infantry?)) first, then officers second is another way of saying they expect officers to be able to stand on their own feet, although it can morph in to 'yer on yer own, which is wrong'. 

Combined and integrated arms without vertical preferences in support is the best way to go but it seems there are legacy elements still around.

Good post, I agree, obviously for the most part. 


Msg ID: 2586710 Yes, that's exactly correct- accept it, or get out. And +0/-1     
Author:that's exactly what happens.
8/8/2019 5:35:02 PM

Reply to: 2586516
Leadership sets actions and policy, individual decides whether to stay or go elsewhere. And when powers that be make it all stupid and scrappy enough, they find themselves with a retention problem. Congrats with that.

Msg ID: 2586951 Yes, that's exactly correct- accept it, or get out. And +0/-0     
8/9/2019 9:35:42 PM

Reply to: 2586710

As commands change with replacements always rotating each one messes with the equation like all goodie little powerpoint warriors and before ya know its a major mess, which is pretty much where we're at now.


Msg ID: 2586469 Army Aviation... +0/-0     
8/7/2019 11:00:49 AM

Reply to: 2586441

After 4 1/2 years of active duty I bailed! Joined the National Guard which was such a welcome change from active duty that I stayed 35 years!

Msg ID: 2586712 Army Aviation... +1/-0     
Author:Betting you weren't M-day
8/8/2019 5:39:21 PM

Reply to: 2586469
for 35 years.

Msg ID: 2586475 Army Aviation... +4/-9     
Author:Then you bring your Army
8/7/2019 11:14:42 AM

Reply to: 2586441

crap to civilian HAA and make it largely miserabl. So thanks for that.

Msg ID: 2586494 You're Welcome! Want a little (NT) +3/-0     
Author:cheese with that whine?
8/7/2019 12:41:09 PM

Reply to: 2586475

Msg ID: 2586517 Army Aviation... (NT) +0/-0     
8/7/2019 2:07:23 PM

Reply to: 2586475

Msg ID: 2586480 Army Aviation... +0/-1     
Author:Don't forget RTP guys?
8/7/2019 11:18:38 AM

Reply to: 2586441
,...but isn't Army Rotorwing the best path to the airlines?

Msg ID: 2586485 Army Aviation... +3/-0     
Author:4mer Ems milret
8/7/2019 11:29:11 AM

Reply to: 2586480

Yes the leadership always need improving ,but if you apply for Army Flight School and actually make it , you might can contribute. Also you get the experience needed for Rtp programs. Just like USMC , your a Infantry Officer , Aviator last. Thats the price you have to pay. Apply for the military if you dont wanna do that,go to a part 141 school and pay for the wings yourself please. 

Msg ID: 2586506 Not the best path to the airlines... (NT) +0/-0     
Author:...but it is an established path!
8/7/2019 1:37:00 PM

Reply to: 2586480

Msg ID: 2586508 Thank God for that! +0/-0     
Author:Soon-to-be Pilot-less Army!
8/7/2019 1:42:03 PM

Reply to: 2586506

And we’ll be laughing our butts off!

Msg ID: 2586518 Not the best path to the airlines... +1/-0     
8/7/2019 2:08:55 PM

Reply to: 2586506

the Vietnam war helicopter pilots were mightily shunned at the airlines, though I didn't want that anyway.  Is what it was.  

Msg ID: 2586718 Airlines are actively recruiting helicopter pilots (NT) +0/-0     
Author:The worm has turned...
8/8/2019 7:23:00 PM

Reply to: 2586518

Msg ID: 2586482 Army Aviation... (NT) +0/-0     
Author:drone first, second, third
8/7/2019 11:25:48 AM

Reply to: 2586441

Msg ID: 2586507 Army Aviation... +1/-7     
8/7/2019 1:40:15 PM

Reply to: 2586482

If you are an officer in the Army and can't grasp the concept of soldier first, officer second, aviator third you should get out and quit wasting taxpayer money. The reason the warranr officer corps, and I was one, got such a horrible reputation in the 70's and 80' was this bs attitude of "I'm not an Army officer, I'm an aviator." The common saying used to be "you'll see Warrants everywhere except the barber shop."

Msg ID: 2586511 Wrong... +10/-2     
8/7/2019 1:57:24 PM

Reply to: 2586507

Warrants are supposed to be Technical Experts IN THEIR FIELD. Not Motor Pool Officers, or Infantry Proficient or anythnig else the Command can think of to keep them away from flying. I too was a Warrant (in good standing) who decided not to WASTE MY TIME allowing the Army Leadership to waste tax payer money with their idiotic Soldier First BS. I got out andfound a real flying career. If that is what a person wants DO NOT listen to the Army’s Warrant recruitment garbage.

Msg ID: 2586565 Wrong... +10/-0     
8/7/2019 7:09:04 PM

Reply to: 2586511

70's-80's Warrant here, Army Avn went to crap when we started to get flooded with "we pees", west pointers, after making it a branch for them. What a pain in the azz they were, always "reinventing the wheel" to have something to put on the OER. 

Msg ID: 2586521 Army Aviation... +0/-1     
Author:Not sure I
8/7/2019 2:22:36 PM

Reply to: 2586507

agree that is what r e a l l y turned out to be but it is an accurate representation of the attitude, BTDT.

My impression is this was the reason Warrants were turned in to commission status @1986 so they would understand and be accountable to the "Officer and Gentleman" reality.

We Warrants did get away with a lot of annoying behavior prior to that.  I was one of  them.

After, we had to make sure our conduct was not "umbecoming an Officer".  The Army made a good choice and certainly in line with all the other services.


Msg ID: 2586989 Army Aviation... +0/-0     
Author:Saul Telode
8/10/2019 9:34:28 AM

Reply to: 2586521

Warrants were commissioned to increase the number of O6 billets and ultimately GO billets across the entire Army.

Msg ID: 2586817 Army Aviation... +0/-0     
Author:No problem
8/9/2019 11:39:26 AM

Reply to: 2586507

out the door already . If I wanted to be a soldier I would have went infantry years ago .

Msg ID: 2586713 Army Aviation... +2/-0     
Author:Yes lol join the army...
8/8/2019 5:42:39 PM

Reply to: 2586441

Drink the “we will make you among the greatest aviators to have ever walked the planet“ mentality. Then get out and realize quite the contrary.

Msg ID: 2586719 Really?? You need to inform American, United (NT) +2/-0     
Author:Southwest, etc. etc.
8/8/2019 7:25:21 PM

Reply to: 2586713

Msg ID: 2587006 Yeah, they are that desperate. (NT) +0/-0     
8/10/2019 12:20:51 PM

Reply to: 2586719

Msg ID: 2586746 Airlines hiring Army Helicopter Pilots +0/-0     
Author:And you makes a statement like that?
8/8/2019 10:30:16 PM

Reply to: 2586713

How does that shoe taste?

Msg ID: 2586783 Airlines hiring Army Helicopter Pilots +2/-0     
8/9/2019 9:18:17 AM

Reply to: 2586746

Say what you want... did 24 in Army Aviation, have a nice retirement check EVERY month, had a lot of fun, met some of the coolest folks and have some great stories and experiences. So I had to march in a parade every once in awhile or spend a week in the field a couple times a year... not a problem. Would do it all over again without hesitation. 

Msg ID: 2586952 Airlines hiring Army Helicopter Pilots +0/-0     
Author:Good for you.
8/9/2019 9:36:23 PM

Reply to: 2586783

Thanks dude!

Msg ID: 2587499 Army Aviation... +0/-0     
Author:An Army Guy
8/13/2019 5:57:06 PM

Reply to: 2586441

Also, remember that nowadays (and it'll be worse for if we have any more left leaning future presidents like Obama) that promotions are NOT guaranteed like the old days.  The Army showed itself clearly this past administration when it forced out MULTIPLE warrant officers at the 18 and 19 year marks who didn't make promotion lists (and who weren't necessarily dirtbags either).  Saw too many dirtbags get to stay and good guys who didn't check every little correct block (both commissioned and warrant) get the boot.  

Incentive to stick around and be abused is fading... 

For those who haven't served in the past 10 years shut your mouths- your glory days of old are not what the current force deals with.  It's not your grandpa's Army anymore and it doesn't seem to be "turning around" for the better any time soon.