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Msg ID: 2580423 MN crash. (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Time to raise MINIMUMS.
7/3/2019 8:46:29 PM

Msg ID: 2580426 MN crash.  +0/-0     
7/3/2019 9:19:41 PM

Reply to: 2580423

OK, I'll bite.  How much time did he/she have?  What should the minimums be?

Msg ID: 2580427 Bite on it. (NT) +0/-3     
Author:2300. Mins should be 5000 +
7/3/2019 9:22:46 PM

Reply to: 2580426

Msg ID: 2580428 New to ems. New to job. New to aircraft. New to single pilot ops. (NT) +5/-1     
Author:New to SPIFR. Low time. = RIP
7/3/2019 9:29:00 PM

Reply to: 2580427

Msg ID: 2580521 Operational Control, then, is what it comes (NT) +0/-0     
Author:down to!
7/4/2019 12:59:42 PM

Reply to: 2580513

Msg ID: 2580564 a decision owned by the certificate holder! (NT) +0/-0     
7/4/2019 5:50:58 PM

Reply to: 2580545

Msg ID: 2580542 New to ems. New to job. New to aircraft. New to single pilot ops.  +3/-0     
Author:If that's
7/4/2019 2:15:33 PM

Reply to: 2580428

all true I definitely agree.  SPIFR is NOT for the uninitiated.

Msg ID: 2580431 Bite on it.  +1/-0     
Author:I thought he came from LLlll
7/3/2019 10:00:20 PM

Reply to: 2580430

Wouldn't be a newb if true.

Msg ID: 2580442 Minimums +25/-0     
7/3/2019 10:40:48 PM

Reply to: 2580437

If the minimums should be 5000+, then the pay should be cominsurate with the experience. And that’s not going to happen. It’s all about profit, and the HAA operators will pay the minimum. 

And how should that 5000 be broken down? Tour pilots in Hawaii can get that in 5 years.  But it’s day/vfr only. No night, no nvgs, no instrument time. Doesn’t make for a good HAA profile. 

Military could get instrument and nvg time. But it’s dual pilot in big aircraft and 300 hours a year. Sometimes tough to transition to a 407 that you fly by yourself. 

Civilian pilots? Well, it’s R22/44 to cfi to tours. Then paragraph two. 

No clear winner here.

Msg ID: 2580444 Minimums +0/-0     
Author:Retired too
7/3/2019 11:12:37 PM

Reply to: 2580442

you nailed it !

Msg ID: 2580452 Whatch you talkin' bout Willis? +0/-0     
7/4/2019 12:03:30 AM

Reply to: 2580442
Tour pilots in Hawaii fly at night.

Msg ID: 2581525 Whatch you talkin' bout Willis? +0/-0     
7/9/2019 2:14:40 PM

Reply to: 2580452

at 2am? I don't think so. 

Msg ID: 2580485 EASY ANSWER ALERT! SUPER EASY FIX +0/-0     
7/4/2019 11:06:52 AM

Reply to: 2580442

The cure is in the works.

Msg ID: 2580491 climb aboard and have a nice flight. (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Hope you get what you wish for.
7/4/2019 11:17:13 AM

Reply to: 2580485

Msg ID: 2580838 EASY ANSWER ALERT! SUPER EASY FIX +0/-0     
7/5/2019 8:43:50 PM

Reply to: 2580485

remote care and surgery via standardized robotic remote surgeries etc.

Obviates the need for transport.


Msg ID: 2581039 EASY ANSWER ALERT! SUPER EASY FIX +0/-0     
Author:River in Egypt
7/6/2019 6:55:02 PM

Reply to: 2580838

Msg ID: 2580474 Bite on it.  +0/-1     
7/4/2019 10:01:32 AM

Reply to: 2580427

2300 hours is considered low time? How does someone get to 5000 hours if you don’t think they should be a paid, commercial pilot?

Msg ID: 2580443 weather available  +6/-1     
Author:Old school idiot
7/3/2019 10:44:55 PM

Reply to: 2580423

 So, I learned to fly when there were ARSA, TRSA type airspace. If you called weather service it was confusing unless weather was something you enjoyed learning and understood. Reporting stations were scattered wide.

 Now, I look at an app and it’s idiot proof. weather reporting stations everywhere. Green=Fly, Blue= probably fly, Red=IFR or special VFR fly, Pink= do not fly!

 Pretty damn easy. 

 At the time of this crash the entire region was pink.

Msg ID: 2580445 weather available  +2/-0     
Author:Old wx guy
7/3/2019 11:14:09 PM

Reply to: 2580443

even understanding the wx has been dumbed down ......

Msg ID: 2580447 weather available  +1/-0     
Author:Random Guy
7/3/2019 11:41:24 PM

Reply to: 2580445


0300Z 16005KT 7SM FEW005 21/16 and 0400Z 15004KT 5SM BR SCT005 19/16 tell me a lot more than Green/Green.

Msg ID: 2580475 Blue, Green, Yellow, Red for stations display on +0/-0     
Author:most GARMINs, if you know how to
7/4/2019 10:02:19 AM

Reply to: 2580443

...use the damn thing.   I've seen some who don't even know how to enter a flight plan other than to press DIRECT TO ENTER

Msg ID: 2580913 Blue, Green, Yellow, Red for stations display on +0/-0     
7/6/2019 8:39:21 AM

Reply to: 2580475

I've seen some who don't even know how to enter a flight plan other than to press DIRECT TO ENTER


I see you've been flying with me!

Msg ID: 2581675 Blue, Green, Yellow, Red for stations display on +0/-0     
7/10/2019 11:08:16 AM

Reply to: 2580475

That all comes from a poor training department at the air carrier.  And poor instructors don't help, either.

Gentlemen, be more intimate with your on-board equipment than you are with your wife or girlfriend.

Hard IMC at the MAP is not the place to learn the avionics.



Msg ID: 2580450 The Answer is Training -- Not Time.  +13/-1     
7/3/2019 11:59:48 PM

Reply to: 2580423

A lot of guys with 5000 hours really have 500 hours, ten times.

Unless you have had lots of actual, varied experience...and by luck, survived all your mistakes...then total time means very little compared to training.

Training, so-called, is just totally inadequate. The instrument rating training is just designed to get somebody through the practical test. It's all theoretical and highly structured. It's not how weather is analyzed, weather decisions made, and IFR operations undertaken in the real world.

We just don't have a system where real-world experienced guys can interact with noobs and impart some wisdom to them. It would cost money to do this. The System prefers to spend money settling lawsuits from crashes and hoping that the noobs they unleash into the IFR system can somehow train themselves.

Fact is, most do. Or, they move on out of an IFR job into something they're comfortable with. Every so often, though, one of them goes in. It's a shame, but nothing of substance is going to be done about it.

Msg ID: 2580914 The Answer is Training -- Not Time.  +0/-0     
7/6/2019 8:50:19 AM

Reply to: 2580450

I agree.

Flight schools are designed to get people through the O&P.  Nothing more.  Same with most company training programs.

In the one I work for, the pilot training manual is just a re-hash of the commercial PTS maneuvers.  Hell, we were going to make some changes and even our FAA ops inspector told us we should "just follow the guidance" and "don't complicate the manual".  Why?  Because it would make HIS job harder - to actually have to decide if our deviation from following their guidance would still be meeting the intent of the guidance.  And it would add complication to their job because because they would have to know what's in our manual and then make sure we were actually teaching to our manual.

In other words, the FAA wants us to leave the manual "minimally acceptable" so that their jobs are easier.

Msg ID: 2580453 MN crash.  +5/-5     
Author:U A Troll
7/4/2019 12:34:14 AM

Reply to: 2580423

He probably had more total time, more helicopter time, and more instrument time than you, and probably flew more instrument approaches in the past 12 months than you have in your life. 

Even the best pilots can make a mistake that will end their lives within seconds. 

You should be ashamed of yourself. Obviously that won’t be the case, but you are the reason so many of us are ashamed to be associated with you. Not because of the accident Pilot, who most likely made a bad decision 7 second before he crashed, but because of cun+s like you, who. Period. 

Msg ID: 2580476 YUP, and only goes to show experience on your (NT) +0/-0     
Author:resume don't mean crapola
7/4/2019 10:04:02 AM

Reply to: 2580453

Msg ID: 2580786 YUP, and only goes to show experience on your +0/-0     
Author:A bit overstated.
7/5/2019 4:07:49 PM

Reply to: 2580476

But yeah, certainly no guarantee of a quality candidate taken in isolation.

Msg ID: 2580525 MN crash.  +1/-1     
Author:It's not just low time vs high time.
7/4/2019 1:11:37 PM

Reply to: 2580453

Seen some gray beards that it is a miracle they have survived. Comes down to effort and work ethic. Many are just lazy and sleep walk through the shift. You either take it seious and put your all into it, or are a duffer who relies on luck. Unfortunately some who have no business in the seat are well liked by crew and management so get a pass on everything else. And saw some of them incompetent boobs crash perfectly good aircraft and some die over the years. And management is always shocked that it happened. The dead ones are heroes, and get enchrined into EMS H-o-F.

Msg ID: 2581592 MN crash.  +0/-0     
Author:Looks Like...
7/9/2019 7:16:23 PM

Reply to: 2580453

This pilot didn't understand the auto-flight system.  My guess he pushed the approach mins and was <Vmini and did the same thing their DO did at KAXN.

Msg ID: 2580507 US HEMS teaining sucks. T (NT) +0/-0     
7/4/2019 12:10:37 PM

Reply to: 2580423

Msg ID: 2580511 US HEMS teaining sucks. The FAA commercial redone, ad nauseum. +2/-1     
7/4/2019 12:23:31 PM

Reply to: 2580507

If I didn't ever hear 0.2 bars again, or see it on a test, I'd live as long and just as safely....

Occasionally one will luck into being taught by a fifted instructor.  In a very few of those occasions, you'll FLY with an instructor who will step outside the company and FAA test to teach new and specific to HEMS skills.

You would be astounded at the the pilots you fly with who dont understand the basic principles they apply daily. 

A fast, high sink downwind approach that results in VRS?  What a shock that is. 

Flying twins is 'safer'?  Yeah, but only if you understand why and apply that knowledge.  Otherwise you'll toast your remaining engine and crash just like a single.  

The GPS will tell you pretty exactly where you are whether you're on the direct line from departure to destination or avoiding hazaedous weather, terrain.  But they'll follow that line right into a mountain, icing, rather than sacifice 5 minutes flying around the hazard.

And don't get me started on autopilots....

Msg ID: 2580810 US HEMS teaining sucks. T +3/-0     
Author:Been trying
7/5/2019 6:23:04 PM

Reply to: 2580507

to tell them that for 20 years.  Still, operators with instructors who work for their companies still manning simulators at FSI.  Wrong.  Need to let FSI run their own show in accordance with the operator's standards.  Companies would be much better off.  Provides much better QA and forward moving pilot development.  Don't think so?  If you've ever been on both sides of the fence you'd believe it.

Msg ID: 2580585 MN crash.  +2/-1     
Author:Elohssa Nami
7/4/2019 8:09:41 PM

Reply to: 2580423

Has anyone stopped to think that perhaps this guy had some sort of malfunction at or shortly before breaking out on the approach? Perhaps night IMC was a contributing factor that made it more difficult to deal with the emergency and not the reason for the crash?

I haven't seen or heard anything yet as to exactly what the condition of the aircraft is other than the pictures we have all seen of it being level and smacked onto the surface. Maybe the TR driveshaft snapped as he was breaking out? Maybe he had an aneurysm that nobody knew about burst in his brain. Maybe he truly was an inexperienced pilot that was in over his head.

How about we let the investigation play out before we solve all of the problems of HAA by hanging this guy out?

Msg ID: 2580595 No way, climbing on bodies to promote  +1/-0     
Author:your agenda is how we roll...
7/4/2019 9:39:16 PM

Reply to: 2580585

"it's for the children".

Msg ID: 2580602 MN crash.  +1/-0     
Author:Entirely possible
7/4/2019 10:38:19 PM

Reply to: 2580585

But dollar to a donut it won't be. 99% of these final reports are just what most suspected.

Msg ID: 2580604 MN crash.  +0/-0     
Author:Your last sentence.
7/4/2019 10:41:32 PM

Reply to: 2580585

That would be great plan if the feds didn't take a year or two to write the final report. Just like the last two fatals on here. Or the last two hundred.