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Msg ID: 2554230 Three to go +38/-2     
2/4/2019 2:37:38 AM

Here's the deal.. The weather is marginal, you are not comfortable, as PIC my duty is to shut this off and go back and land, no harm , no foul.  Not hurting my feelings.


But I have had flights where the only thing I could turn the flight down is for sun glare, I have flights where I have had murses pull their phone and show me radar pictures of the western hemisphere and say we can't fly when the weather was 100 miles away.


You want to 3 to go me? Fine.  But I will submit 20 pages of observations, forecasts and radar shots of why we could have done it, with how the competition did it without incident and show what a lazy goldbricking coward pu zzy you are.  You want to get the glory of being a flight nurse, but you just want to watch netflix, sleep and do your online cracker jack fake college BSN courses and not Do Your Job.  There are plenty of nursing home bedpans and ambulette transports to match your skill level.

Msg ID: 2554243 Three to go +8/-0     
2/4/2019 6:57:11 AM

Reply to: 2554230

you'll never win an argument with a med crew member...

we operate a/c, they practice medicine

According to a recent study by Johns Hopkins, more than 250,000 people in the United States die every year because of medical mistakes, making it the third leading cause of death after heart disease and cancer.



Msg ID: 2554256 yep, screen shots and turndown folder, (NT) +1/-0     
Author:reason to dispatch.
2/4/2019 9:19:55 AM

Reply to: 2554243

Msg ID: 2554542 wait, what? I thought school shootings were! (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Mr. Biggs
2/6/2019 5:25:47 AM

Reply to: 2554243

Msg ID: 2554247 Three to go +17/-1     
Author:P Hi
2/4/2019 8:15:13 AM

Reply to: 2554230

Yep, been there. When that happened I started passing on to Comm the real reasons. Such as; weather is fine, nurse is uncomfortable with weather 100 miles away, or have to turn down this flight, medic doesn't want to go, he'll miss his fire shift.

I didn't miss many flights after that. Seems like the crew didn't like that sent over the radio or recorded in Comm!

Msg ID: 2554249 Three to go +4/-1     
2/4/2019 8:31:40 AM

Reply to: 2554247

I worked at two different EMS company’s in 30 years. One supported the Pilot and used commonsense. The other company Med-Trans you  not only had to watch out for the med crew, you had to watch your back with  management.  Worst company, I have ever worked at in 30 years of aviation.  I was lucky enough to find a utility job. Life is good again!!!

Msg ID: 2554265 Three to go +2/-14     
Author:I am curious
2/4/2019 9:55:33 AM

Reply to: 2554230

How many of you "I am in charge pilots" would leave your family (alone) at the bases you fly at with ALL the other pilots to make the weather decision. Or for that matter get in the back and keep your mouth closed.  

Msg ID: 2554269 Three to go +14/-0     
Author:If you don't want to
2/4/2019 10:18:35 AM

Reply to: 2554265

fly, that is your prerogative.  No one is saying that you don't have that right. 

If you are a medic or nurse working in HEMS, not wanting to fly for no valid reason is a job performance problem that your employer should address.  I feel it is my obligation to inform the employer of that information.  What they do with that information is not my concern.


Msg ID: 2554283 Three to go +1/-2     
Author:Good on you
2/4/2019 11:30:32 AM

Reply to: 2554269
I feel the same way. That said, i don't know about your company, but at mine, that can get you in trouble. Officially, you are absolutely correct. If the med crew says "no" or 51%s for whatever reason you decline or abort the flight and notify dispatch and/or your operations center that it was a 51%. What i have witnessed, however, is that when a pilot does this (exactly what you described above), some med crew tend to get really butt hurt and offended. No clue why.... the 51% rule is absolutely non-punitive, and trust me... our company holds it sacred and won't even question it. Its almost like its an ego thing or something. They want to 51% out of the flight, and they are given that option, but when the pilot calls it what it is (med crew... 51%), they get their wittle feewings hurt. Bottom line... just call it a decline/abort due to weather/unforecasted weather. They get to continue calling themselves a flight nurse or flight paramedic without having to work too hard. You get to continue having a job with a super easy schedule and 95% of the time. super easy flying and little to no drama. Seriously man. Don't endanger your job/income over this. I've seen pilots try to fight this battle the way you've described. Best case scenario is they are made into float pilots or transferred somewhere in BFE. Its not your job to force medics and nurses to have a decent work ethic.

Msg ID: 2554293 Three to go +6/-0     
Author:I, Pilot
2/4/2019 12:22:38 PM

Reply to: 2554283

If you're working at a company that revolves around the butt hurt nurse or medic, then you need to find another company to work for.

If you have to abort or decline a flight due to one of the med crew not wanting to go, then that needs to be reported and documented - especially if it's a B$ reason. I tell my crews that I will happily turn down or abort if one or both of them are uncomfortable, but they have to take responsibiity for their decision.

If management ever gives you a hard time about reporting a med crew no-go decision, then put it to them this way - "I complied with a med crew's no-go decision. I reported that decision accurately. You understand that we just lost both revenue and flight volume based on that med crew's decision, not mine."

Msg ID: 2554308 Three to go +6/-0     
Author:Just telling
2/4/2019 1:24:54 PM

Reply to: 2554293
you what i've seen, man. I don't think you'll find many companies without their fair share of lazy, butt-hurt nurses and medics. As far as loss of revenue, i don't sweat it. If they're worried about that, they need to hire medics and nurses who want to be a flight nurse or medic more than "in-name-only". When management comes down on you as described above, it won't be based in your decision-making. It will be based on several med-"crew" making a little alliance behind your back and agreeing as a group not to fly with you. I've seen other pilots get blackballed in this manner... good pilots who made good decisions, but made the mistake of calling med"crew" on their bulls---t. Another thing to remember... depending on how your company is structured, this may or may not be a factor... many times the regional and local leadership aren't pilots, but in fact may have worked with the medics or nurses at your base at some of the same EMS agencies. Who do you think they're going to support in a scrap between you and them? Just decline it and keep notes. You're not getting paid per flight or flight hour. And again.... you are NEVER going to nor is it your job to develop work ethic in tye self loading baggage.

Msg ID: 2554311 Good advice +1/-0     
Author:I, Pilot
2/4/2019 1:52:09 PM

Reply to: 2554308

Yours is good advice as well. The most important is to document every flight that is aborted or declined - especially if that flight is taken by someone else. From what I've seen and heard about programs like that, is that someone will eventually want to know why flights are being aborted or declined. The person who gets asked is always the pilot.

Document and document well. Keep everything in a file that is kept somewhere secure.

Msg ID: 2554315 Good advice +7/-0     
2/4/2019 2:11:53 PM

Reply to: 2554311
That's exactly it. Document and document well. I document every declined flight with actual weather data and screenshots straight into a private folder, like someone above mentioned. And i religously fill out a proper debrief log that everyone signs at the conclusion of every flight. If at some point there was the rare question or a gray area during the flight that i think might lead to any doubt, i let my boss and my boss' boss know about it. I've seen pilots that didn't, and by the time it reached the regional manager's ears, it was the paramedic version, filled with drama, hyperbole and untruth. Flying is the easy part of this job. The far more challenging part is the people. 95% of med crew are good folks. But that remaining 5% can make life miserable at a base. Bottom line.... document and document well and accurately. It might save your job. Not a gaurantee, but you'll stand alot better chance if it comes down to a fight with a bad med "crew".

Msg ID: 2554361 Three to go +0/-0     
2/4/2019 8:27:10 PM

Reply to: 2554283

When you only say weather turn down it is on the pilot I always told the med crew no problem if they wanted to call 51 % but that is what I told dispatch the reason was

Msg ID: 2554324 Three to go +0/-0     
Author:I am curious
2/4/2019 3:10:12 PM

Reply to: 2554269

I agree completely


Msg ID: 2554394 Three to go +3/-0     
Author:Just be a grown up
2/5/2019 8:38:46 AM

Reply to: 2554265

If you don't want to fly, fine. Nobody is trying to kidnap you. Just stand behind your decision and own it.

Don't expect the pilot to take your turndown (yes, statistics are compiled on such things). If you feel confident that you are better positioned to make that weather descision, just own it. That's all. I don't want anyone flying against their will.

HEMS is not a job for everybody. Not every nurse, not every paramedic, and not every pilot is cut out for this work.

Msg ID: 2554301 Three to go +0/-3     
Author:You must be popular
2/4/2019 1:01:49 PM

Reply to: 2554230

ill bet people can’t wait to work with you.  Listen steroid Steven, if the crew doesn’t want to go, just make a note that the crew turned it down and go back to watching “road house” and relax. You’re not a hero.

Msg ID: 2554385 Three to go +0/-0     
2/5/2019 7:31:08 AM

Reply to: 2554230
You will lose. That's corporate philosophy. You get paid either way, screw it. After flying 30 years in EMS I gave un. If they hiccup, screw it, back to bed.

Msg ID: 2554402 Three to go +0/-0     
2/5/2019 9:35:26 AM

Reply to: 2554230

Just make sure when you decline the flight, or RTB, you verbalize "the nurse/medic has declined" or "is calling 51%" on the recoreded  line.

Msg ID: 2554474 Three to go +1/-0     
Author:Do yourself
2/5/2019 5:24:05 PM

Reply to: 2554230

a favor, go out and start the helicopter - make her show the cards.

Msg ID: 2554544 Three to go +0/-0     
2/6/2019 7:05:03 AM

Reply to: 2554230

Why Cant we all get along