Click here to close
New Message Alert
List Entire Thread
Msg ID: 2554096 History repeats +4/-2     
Author:Anyone notice
2/3/2019 7:51:13 AM

The survival flight accident in Ohio and the Med Trans accident in Mason city have so many factors in common.

same bell 407 (no auto pilot, at least on the Mason city ACFT)

similar weather

both at night

under heavy overcast 

both on NVG

both reported local METARs met company minimums 

both pilots had low experience in winter weather flying 

both flights had been turned down by multiple other programs 

The EMS/HAA industry is A blood bath.

 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554098 uhhhh, no, it's not +25/-4     
Author:Anonymous
2/3/2019 7:58:04 AM

Reply to: 2554096

take a real look at the real numbers. the accident rate is well on par with the rest of general aviation.

the reason you see so many accidents is that there are a hell of a lot of helicopters flying a hell of a lot of hours in what is essentially a pretty hazardous operation. compared to, for example, daytime gom flying, this is a complex and hazardous operation.

but when an haa goes in, there's media coverage out the wazoo, and because of the nature of the operation, everybody's heart strings get pulled...typical headline is like, "oh dear oh dear, another brave crew of air angels has flown to heaven while trying to save lives, and also doing what they loved!"....

the sensationalist media plays it because it sells. the general public gets teary-eyed because they don't know the facts. anybody who understands aviation and is involved in the profession of it shouldn't be bleating this nonsense along with the rest of the sheep.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554104 uhhhh, no, it's not +6/-7     
Author:You’re a moron
2/3/2019 8:32:36 AM

Reply to: 2554098

your quote: take a real look at the real numbers. the accident rate is well on par with the rest of general aviation.

 

using your logic accidents dents should never be investigated and controls implemented to improve safety.

youre the reason why the accident rate is static.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554309 uhhhh, no, it's not +0/-0     
Author:Actually
2/4/2019 1:26:49 PM

Reply to: 2554104

actually that person is correct...  the numbers are actually acceptable if you look at the large number of flight hours flown for single engine every year.  

Many years ago it was acceptable for 1 fatalitiy for every 100,000 hours of flying. 

 

 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554105 Off subject +7/-0     
Author:retired
2/3/2019 8:34:12 AM

Reply to: 2554098
Today is the day the music died, in a Beach 35 bonanza. February 3 1959. Location was with in a few feet from where med-trans crashed.


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554107 Off subject +0/-0     
Author:The first one was over 7 years ago
2/3/2019 8:42:20 AM

Reply to: 2554105

Yeah, a real blood bath.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554108 Off subject +0/-0     
Author:Excuse me
2/3/2019 8:44:22 AM

Reply to: 2554107

six years ago. 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554115 uhhhh, no, it's not +15/-1     
Author:HEMS accidents
2/3/2019 9:27:59 AM

Reply to: 2554098

The accident rate for HEMS is actually higher then any other commercial sector of the helicopter industry. The only other groups with higher accident rates are flight instruction and recreational flying.

While HEMS makes up a huge part of the industry, the flight time per aircraft is relatively low. Which is why when conducting accident studies, the data is depicted against flight hours (total accidents vs. 100,000 flight hours).

You mentioned that flying day VFR in the GoM presents less risk than HAA. I agree with that, at least in comparison to flying HEMS around mountainous terrain, at night, in a region with volatile weather. It is well documented that there have been far less fatalities in the offshore sector. And as an offshore pilot myself, I acknowledge that there are many challenges with the job but, as long as your equipment is working properly, it isn’t a terribly difficult job. So what it boils down to is this; the more challenging the job, the more experienced the pilot should be.

So why is it that HEMS is the one industry cutting corners in this regard? The hiring minimums are now so low, that pilots who have only worked as CFIs can hire on at bottom feeder companies. Put in a year flying tours and you can get hired at one of the “good ones”.

That’s what everyone gets fired up about. This absurd cycle of lowering qualifications to maximize profit. To significantly reduce HEMS accidents, three things need to occur (And it’s not dual pilot IFR)

1.) Raise hiring minimums and pay to attract more experienced pilots

2.) Design a more robust training program. 6 month check rides with a heavy emphasis on IIMC recovery and off airport precautionary landings.

3.) A change in company culture to truly support safety. They all preach it, but most only hold to it within an acceptable profit margin.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554116 uhhhh, no, it's not +2/-0     
Author:crusader 22
2/3/2019 9:44:14 AM

Reply to: 2554115

How about an emphasis on IIMC avoidance.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554341 I disagree... +2/-0     
Author:...dual pilot IFR would solve it..
2/4/2019 5:48:42 PM

Reply to: 2554115

Flew 20 years CG Dual Pilot IFR and 22 years SPIFR HAA. SPIFR is safer than SPVFR & dual pilot IFR is safer than SPIFR. Additionally, entry level pilots would gain real HAA experience as SICs in a natural career progression. Mandatory dual pilot IFR would cut down on the over abundance of HAA aircraft as companies would be forced to buy bigger and more expensive helicopters. In time the accident rate would mirror 121 and aircraft numbers would match demand.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554551 I disagree... +0/-0     
Author:Doesn't help in icing conditions
2/6/2019 9:10:22 AM

Reply to: 2554341

IFR



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554599 I disagree... +2/-0     
Author:yep,
2/6/2019 1:17:25 PM

Reply to: 2554551

and tornadoes. IFR doesn't fix tornadoes! nothing gets by you!

if it's not a 100% solution it's a waste of time. if it can't prevent every potential hazard, its just a useless waste.  what we've been doing seems to be working good enough.

geniuses.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554641 If there is icing... +1/-0     
Author: ...then no one flies
2/6/2019 6:55:18 PM

Reply to: 2554551

Which would then put real pressure on aircraft manufacturers to produce ice certified helicopters.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554868 I disagree... +0/-0     
Author:Agreed...
2/8/2019 1:02:05 PM

Reply to: 2554341

However, the aircraft being operated in HAA are generally VFR single pilot light singles.  Dual pilot requires at least an airframe such as EC or H-145 to carry pilots, medcrew, pax, equipment, and fuel.  Until that dynamic changes, it will be hard to do.  

Safety has very little to do with safety, it has to do with money.  That is precisely why safety always is kept out of the loop when business and operational decisions are implemented.

Sad but true.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554481 uhhhh, no, it's not +0/-0     
Author:You forgot
2/5/2019 5:42:01 PM

Reply to: 2554115

to shove the medical influence out and tell them to  STFU.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554195 uhhhh, no, it's not +0/-0     
Author:Synonymous
2/3/2019 7:20:27 PM

Reply to: 2554098

Quit comparing yourself to some 17 year d kid flying a Piper Tomahawk on a night cross-country and start comparing yourselves to PROFESSIONAL AVIATORS.

 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554480 uhhhh, no, it's not +1/-0     
Author:Have no fear, though,
2/5/2019 5:39:54 PM

Reply to: 2554098

as the IHST is on it.  Repeating what was done over and over and over in order to attempt a fix to this normal accident rate.  They might start with reasonable objectives.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554110 History repeats +1/-0     
Author:@History Repeats
2/3/2019 8:59:59 AM

Reply to: 2554096

That was a good post right up to that last sentence.  You lost credibility with that comment.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554120 History repeats +0/-0     
Author:I should have left it
2/3/2019 10:06:39 AM

Reply to: 2554110

You would have never known the difference 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554124 It wasn't at night (NT) +0/-0     
Author:From what I was told.
2/3/2019 10:14:41 AM

Reply to: 2554096


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554125 History repeats +0/-0     
Author:well, at least they
2/3/2019 10:15:58 AM

Reply to: 2554096

didn't take 2 hours to notice that the aircraft had stopped tracking (AMC, Native 5).



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554128 Why didn't you write all that in the text block? +0/-6     
Author:Why?
2/3/2019 10:56:07 AM

Reply to: 2554125

i wAnNa bE kEwL tOo.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554126 The Day the Music Died +3/-0     
Author:BigT
2/3/2019 10:16:23 AM

Reply to: 2554096

Interesting that you reference the crash in Mason City.  Today marks the 60th anniversary of the crash that took the lives of the Big Bopper, Richie Valens, and Buddy Holly (and almost, had he not taken the bus, Waylon Jennings).



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554141 History repeats +0/-0     
Author:Sorry for all involved
2/3/2019 12:52:16 PM

Reply to: 2554096

Bell 407 in HAA ???

 

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20040325X00375&;key=1

https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief2.aspx?ev_id=20040720X01007&ntsbno=CHI04MA182&akey=1

 



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554157 Not the right experience +1/-0     
Author:500hrs night
2/3/2019 2:09:34 PM

Reply to: 2554096
Too many of you newbiews are meeting the night requirement by teaching instruments at night. Could be why you all keep crashing at night?


Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554159 Not the right experience +0/-0     
Author:Remind me
2/3/2019 2:59:12 PM

Reply to: 2554157

of all the accidents with newbies crashing at night.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554177 Not the right experience +3/-0     
Author:oldNtired
2/3/2019 5:13:07 PM

Reply to: 2554159

Quit flying unqualified machines at night and bad weather.  I don't care if the helicopter is qualified IFR it does'nt mean it can go at anytime in any weather.  I can think of times we had wx cancellations or diversions  in a 2 engine jet and full EFIS.  Pilot qualifications are another matter, The more experience, the easier the go- no-go.  When we have a helicopter with known Ice capabilites for any parameters,  ground following radar,  Accurate, panel mounted Visual artifical terrain pictorials,  Full Weather Elimination NVG's and 2 highly experienced pilots,  I will bet we will still having this conversation.  No matter what you do Gravity still rules !



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554211 Not the right experience +0/-0     
Author:HEMS isn't
2/3/2019 9:48:15 PM

Reply to: 2554177

general aviation.  Compare HEMS to other part 135 ops.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554279 135 is part of general aviation +0/-0     
Author:Anonymous
2/4/2019 11:03:44 AM

Reply to: 2554211

look it up. but first dust the cobwebs off the books, you obviously haven't been in them for a while



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554762 135 is part of general aviation +0/-0     
Author:Don't Completely Agree...
2/7/2019 2:19:18 PM

Reply to: 2554279

ICAO:  General Aviation (GA) is defined by ICAO as "all civil aviation operations other than scheduled air services and non-scheduled air transport operations for remuneration or hire;"

FAA:  All civilaviation operations other than scheduled air services and nonscheduled air transport operations for remuneration or hire.

If you have something other, please post the reference.



Return-To-Index  
 
Msg ID: 2554349 Not the right experience +0/-0     
Author:Are you sure?
2/4/2019 6:58:51 PM

Reply to: 2554157
Have the majority of mishap pilots in these crashes been "newbies"?


Return-To-Index