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Msg ID: 2553858 Medical staff NOT crew +29/-12     
2/2/2019 6:46:33 AM

Medical crew are pax. Period. End of story. Cut the cr@# of this 3 to go one to say no....stop kissing their butts..

Put two qualified pilots up front in that twin. If the pilots can accept the flight it goes. IFR or VFR the pilots choose. Two of them. The Medical staff most likely have no more formal training than the 200 pax in the back of that commercial jet..

Medical staff get in and do their job. Pilots say go, it’s go.

Medical staff put down their weather apps and stop playing pilot.

Single engine VFR aircraft, single pilot...if the weather meets the requirements and is forecast to stay and you know it, you go. If it doesn’t you stay and they go ground, no “let’s take a look”, no “maybe we can do it”.

Simple, why is this so confusing.

Msg ID: 2553861 Medical staff NOT crew +8/-6     
Author:That would work great if
2/2/2019 7:25:21 AM

Reply to: 2553858

so many Pilots didn't make lame brain decisions about accepting and pressing on. Write back when that day comes.

Msg ID: 2553862 Medical staff NOT crew +9/-1     
Author:SPIFR guy
2/2/2019 7:28:20 AM

Reply to: 2553858

Two pilots aren't required for IFR or VFR either. SPIFR is the way to go. 

You load up a light twin and your useful load is gone. I rather have the fuel.

Msg ID: 2553875 please inform your managment and  +4/-12     
Author:the faa of your discovery
2/2/2019 8:36:34 AM

Reply to: 2553858

thank you for sharing your knowledge.

unfortunately, according the the faa, it's wrong. you can read why under the definition of "crewmember" in 14cfr1. it's in there.

also, your management disagrees with you. read why in your operations manual.

of course, all this assumes that you are some kind of haa pilot. what kind? a screwed-up, know-nothing, that's what kind. i wish we had a hundred guys like you. why? because we got thousands.

as somebody else in the thread has pointed out, you are not the boss of these medical people. if i had to guess, i would guess that you are out of the military, and went right into haa flying, and your slow and agonizing discovery that you are no longer the boss of everybody involved in the flight operation, but (until you commence a flight) are, as the pilot at the haa base, the lowest individual on the totem pole, just chaps your a**. that bleeds through every ignorant word of your ignorant post.

look. do yourself and everybody involved a big, big favor: go into your director of operations and tell him exactly what you just posted...that this is your heartfelt conviction, and that you are just no longer going to work one single minute until things are changed in the way you've described this very instant, and that if they're not so changed, you are going to resign! right now! and you want a decision! right now!

...and then, good luck in your future endeavors. i hear walmat is hiring.

in conclusion, if i haven't made myself clear thus far (which is sometimes a failing of mine...), you're an ignorant doosh with the telling habit of making juvenile rants that betray your ignorance and unsuitability to command an aircraft.

have a nice day

Msg ID: 2553879 If you can't make a point in a couple sentences  +10/-0     
Author:Grade School Composition 101
2/2/2019 8:56:52 AM

Reply to: 2553875

You become a blathering, hate spewing, sarcastic doosh yourself.

Do us all a favor...get over yourself and your daily biblical length diatribes

Msg ID: 2553884 u really oughta work on that add problem  +1/-5     
2/2/2019 9:10:46 AM

Reply to: 2553879

did u disclose your ritalin prescription on your last application for a medical certificate?

Msg ID: 2553886 let's get more policitally correct  +6/-0     
Author:lest we offend someone
2/2/2019 9:15:13 AM

Reply to: 2553875

Yeah, what was the FAA thinking when they created the catagory of Pilot in Command--surely they didn't think we actually had any control over the operations of the aircraft and heaven forbid passengers , crew, baggage, fuel managment, w/b, airworthiness, proper pubs, and the list goes on.---I agree, just call us aviation (bus) drivers.-----Works for me!!! Old @$$ pilot--yep Mil Ret--yep done it all---bring it on!

Msg ID: 2553890 please inform your managment and  +5/-0     
2/2/2019 9:33:24 AM

Reply to: 2553875

I have saw that there is no difference where the pilot gets his traning there are good and bad from each sector. Yes I went the milatary route.


Msg ID: 2553899 please inform your managment and  +1/-0     
2/2/2019 9:57:14 AM

Reply to: 2553875

Call the FAA and ask them. Am I a crew member or a passenge? And get back to us!!

You are the clueless one. 

Msg ID: 2553930 please inform your managment and  +0/-0     
2/2/2019 1:25:44 PM

Reply to: 2553899

Who gets in trouble if a violation occurs?   ALL the crewmenbers! 

Msg ID: 2553942 please inform your managment and  +0/-0     
2/2/2019 2:06:38 PM

Reply to: 2553875

the pilot is the boss... am I missing something?

Msg ID: 2553984 please inform your managment and  +2/-0     
2/2/2019 4:42:06 PM

Reply to: 2553875

Mostly useless blather from a useless sob...what’s your point?

Oh there is none.

Msg ID: 2553909 Medical staff NOT crew +8/-0     
2/2/2019 10:31:15 AM

Reply to: 2553858
If the med crew doesn't want to go either they are in the wrong line of work, the pilot isn't communicating the dynamics of the weather to give them an understanding of why it's good to go, the pilot has scared them before, or they just don't trust the pilot's decision making abilities. All things considered, the med crews that fall into any of these categories are probably going to make it home at the end of their shift. Quit looking to point the finger at someone else for the failings in the HAA industry, it's not like everyone doesn't have some blood on their hands. Everyone needs to start coming up with a better way, or the FAA is going to drop more asinine rules to put lipstick on the pig. My first suggestion would be to not use minimums as a competitive advantage. That Survival Flight thing that reminds hospitals to shop around is vile.

Msg ID: 2553916 Oh, another one of these posts +3/-5     
2/2/2019 11:54:18 AM

Reply to: 2553858

Oh great, it's another one of those "how dare you question the almighty pilot, I am an infallable expert on all things flying.  Me and my cohort never make fatal mistakes"


How's about this, once pilots stop making arrogant, short sighted decisions and disintegrating helicopters into the ground during IIMC, then maybe med crew will lighten up on their ability to say "I don't think you're looking at the weather right, lets stay home".



Msg ID: 2553943 Oh, another one of these posts +2/-1     
2/2/2019 2:10:55 PM

Reply to: 2553916

It is the pilots responsibility. Problem is your stupid company keeps hiring inexperienced inexpensive pilots. You can’t just keep adding rules unless youRe going to change the law. Pilot is boss. You’ve been served.

Msg ID: 2554229 Oh, another one of these posts +0/-0     
Author:whatever murse
2/4/2019 2:27:59 AM

Reply to: 2553916

Here's the deal.. The weather is marginal, you are not comfortable, as PIC my duty is to shut this off and go back and land, no harm , no foul.  Not hurting my feelings.

But I have had flights where the only thing I could turn the flight down is for sun glare, I have flights where I have had murses pull their phone and show me radar pictures of the western hemisphere and say we can't fly when the weather was 100 miles away.

You want to 3 to go me? Fine.  But I will submit 20 pages of observations, forecasts and radar shots of why we could have done it, with how the competition did it without incident and show what a lazy goldbricking coward pu zzy you are.  You want to get the glory of being a flight nurse, but you just want to watch netflix, sleep and do your online cracker jack fake college BSN courses and not Do Your Job.  There are plenty of nursing home bedpans and ambulette transports to match your skill level.

Msg ID: 2553918 Medical staff NOT crew +8/-0     
Author:407 driver
2/2/2019 12:03:04 PM

Reply to: 2553858

Probably apples to oranges, but In the Gulf of Mexico, every oil company, 3rd party support company (like crane mechanics, radio techs, galley crew, etc) and helicopter operator has agreed to this policy of “stop work authority”. Basically, any person has the authority to stop an operation (aviation, oil production, whatever) if they feel it is unsafe.

What does this mean to the pilot? The customer has the ability to either A.) Refuse to fly with you or B.) If enroute, tell you they want to divert/head back if the weather is sketchy or airworthiness is in question.

They are not crew members. They don’t act like they run the aircraft. They are simply customers who have the ability to speak up if there is a safety concern. And I’m 100% ok with that. In the three years I’ve been flying offshore, I haven’t had a single customer elect to do A or B above. There are 3 reasons for that.

1.) I keep them in the loop with the weather and my decision making. I explain what weather factors are present, what I’m looking for, my plan for diverting / returning and what conditions would dictate doing so. 

2.) I don’t push weather. There are plenty of days where the weather is marginal and I fly, but I always give myself an out. I give myself viable alternates and fly around the weather, not thru it.

3.) The customer acknowledges that they are not aviation professionals. If they are unsure of something (such as an advisory light in the cockpit), they ask and I explain why it’s safe to continue. 

So on the HAA side, you’ve got yourself a bit of a pickle. Seems like you’ve had enough pilots f$&! up #1 and #2, which has bred a mentality the customer not following #3. I could be wrong though; maybe even if HAA had all of the best pilots in the world, the med folks would still try to run the show.

I agree though that the med crew are not ‘flight crew’. They are the exact same as any offshore or utility crew. Use their eyes and ears to stay alert for hazards, and listen to any safety concerns that they have. But at the end of the day, they need to stay in their lane. The people in the back notify the pilot of hazards, the PIC decides how to handle them. Good luck re-establishing that symbiotic relationship on your side of the industry.

Msg ID: 2553928 Medical staff NOT crew +0/-0     
Author:Lets take a look
2/2/2019 1:17:41 PM

Reply to: 2553918

If you work in a remote area without any weather reporting locally sometimes let take a look is the best you got. When we are not 100% we take off make a couple of 360's under goggles and if we can see the big city 40 miles away we go. Now if there is any doubt we don't leave the office.

Msg ID: 2553981 Medical staff NOT crew +2/-0     
Author:Letís not take a look
2/2/2019 4:38:29 PM

Reply to: 2553928

I used to agree with take a look until...

The precious minutes used for that ”take a look” could cost the patient their life. You just used up 30 minutes to try and convince the crew it’s ok to go when ground could have already been dispatched.

That “take a look” in the worst cast just failed the patient. Even if it’s only one time its too many.

Msg ID: 2553929 Yeesss! ^^^ +3/-2     
2/2/2019 1:20:35 PM

Reply to: 2553918

I truely don't understand where the almighty attitude comes from. "Don't question the pilot, if he says go, we go...." NO! That is exactly why we are in these situations.

407 above said it best. If your med crew is questioning you then help them understand what you are looking at. Explain to them why it is safe to go, or un-safe to not go. Explain your out's and your alternative plans should it not be as you expect. Are they "Crew members?" not by definition. But if they can provide some information from a past experience they have had I'll take it into consideration. (Notice I didn't say I'll follow it.)

I fly SPIFR HAA. I am confident in my abilities to get us home safely should I end up in the clouds. Does that give me the right to push a Med members feelings and experience aside? No, that is exactly how you end up doing the opposite of building confidence from your Medical peeps. If they turned down a flight that I accepted because of the weather and I know we could have taken it. Oh well. Now it's a learning opportunity for that Medical person. Now I have the time to explain why I thought it was okay to go in detail. And, if they want to... Let's go do a training flight. We will go out IFR and show them what they could have expected, and get them more comfortable. Guess what, they will be more confident in me as a result as well.

Why do we as pilots have to be the almighty one that knows everything and can't be questioned? I welcome my crew questioning me. It provides me a chance to instill confidence in me and my abilities. Next time maybe they will not question me. 

Msg ID: 2553958 GOMers and "Stop Work Authority" is just +2/-1     
Author:window dressing
2/2/2019 3:13:18 PM

Reply to: 2553929

You do realize that if ANYONE says "I am invoking stop work authority" it requires immediate cessation of work, safety departments from all companies have to get involved and have meetings before any of that work begins again.

Just fluff and fill, nothing more. UNLESS of course their is an accident and everyone is called out for NOT speaking out!

Speak out though, and you will be black-balled in the oil and gas industry.

Msg ID: 2554609 Medical staff NOT crew +0/-0     
Author:NOT customers
2/6/2019 3:06:26 PM

Reply to: 2553918


Msg ID: 2553965 They are crew, stop denying it. FAA FAR 1.1 (NT) +0/-0     
Author:Fundamentals of flying!
2/2/2019 4:05:06 PM

Reply to: 2553858

Msg ID: 2553971 They are crew, stop denying it. FAA FAR 1.1 +5/-0     
2/2/2019 4:19:17 PM

Reply to: 2553965

I agree that they are now "crew", and should have to comply with all the associated regs. Annual Flight Physicals, crew day, etc..  If the FAA has a requirement for them to be on Goggles when the PIC is on goggles, then let's go the whole way and make the entire operation compliant.

Msg ID: 2553990 They are crew, stop denying it. FAA FAR 1.1 +0/-0     
2/2/2019 5:22:23 PM

Reply to: 2553971

Booger hit it right on the head.  If they want to be "crew" members make them resposible for their actions, or lack there of.  Duty times, drug testing,knowledge testing the whole 9 yards.  Then when something happens THEY get suspended for 90 days or more and see how they like it.  THAT should cull the herd.

Msg ID: 2554014 They are crewmembers even without (NT) +0/-0     
Author:all that jazz
2/2/2019 6:50:27 PM

Reply to: 2553990

Msg ID: 2554067 They are crew, stop denying it. FAA FAR 1.1 +0/-0     
Author:FAR Part 1.1 defines the
2/2/2019 10:50:53 PM

Reply to: 2553965

terms used in the FAR's.  When you see the term "crewmember" in the FAR's, you can find that definition in 1.1. 

So, the question is...where in the FAR's do you see the term "crewmember" as it pertains to medical personnel?

Msg ID: 2554070 are these medical personnel assigned to perform  +0/-0     
Author:a duty aboard the aircraft in flight?
2/2/2019 11:00:36 PM

Reply to: 2554067

If so, they are crewmembers by definition!

Msg ID: 2554150 are these medical personnel assigned to perform  +0/-0     
2/3/2019 1:34:54 PM

Reply to: 2554070

which FAR (s) describe their duties, responsibilties, quaifications, and medical standards?

By your logic, I'm a Part 121 crewmember if I am seated in an exit row.

Frequent flyers are not crewmembers.

Msg ID: 2554213 My logic is that if they are assigned any duty +0/-0     
Author:they are a crewmember FAR 1.1
2/3/2019 10:10:00 PM

Reply to: 2554150

Yes, technically, you are!

Msg ID: 2554214 and that's why they will move your butt if you (NT) +0/-0     
Author:don't agree to that duty!
2/3/2019 10:10:39 PM

Reply to: 2554213

Msg ID: 2554217 and yet they will still serve me alcohol... (NT) +0/-0     
2/3/2019 10:39:44 PM

Reply to: 2554214

Msg ID: 2554236 only one or two, max (NT) +0/-0     
2/4/2019 6:19:07 AM

Reply to: 2554217

Msg ID: 2554278 Haha, a couple of shots and I'm still a (NT) +0/-0     
Author:crewmember? Sweet.
2/4/2019 10:39:25 AM

Reply to: 2554236

Msg ID: 2554452 My logic is that if they are assigned any duty +0/-0     
Author:Could Be...
2/5/2019 4:20:12 PM

Reply to: 2554213

But only if assigned by the Certificate Holder.  Now to assign a those crew duties and designate Crew Member status, the Certificate Holder must train them IAW an FAA Approved Crew Member Training Program.

Telling a passenger to close the door and buckle their seat belts most likely won't cut it...


Msg ID: 2554618 what you far illiterates don't understand +0/-0     
2/6/2019 4:03:28 PM

Reply to: 2554452

is that there is a difference...and, it's right in there in the far's...between a "crewmember" and a "flight crewmember." pilots are "flight crewmembers" and have separate requirements than do "crewmembers."

Msg ID: 2554681 what you far illiterates don't understand +0/-0     
Author:Clearly Understand...
2/7/2019 8:40:07 AM

Reply to: 2554618

And there is no argument in my post to contradict what you say.

The FAA approved Crewmember Training Program is required for the position the Certificate Holder assigns duty.  Regardless of Flight Crew Member, Crew Member, Medical Crew Member, Flight Attendent, etc. Are all under the global definition of "Crew Member."  The Crew Member Training Program is just tailored to the duty positioin assigned.

§135.323   Training program: General.

(a) Each certificate holder required to have a training program under §135.341 shall:

(1) Establish and implement a training program that satisfies the requirements of this subpart and that ensures that each crewmember, aircraft dispatcher, flight instructor and check airman is adequately trained to perform his or her assigned duties. Prior to implementation, the certificate holder must obtain initial and final FAA approval of the training program.

Maybe not so illiterate as one may believe...

Msg ID: 2554002 Medical staff NOT crew +1/-0     
2/2/2019 6:25:45 PM

Reply to: 2553858

is this so confusing?"



I totally agree with your assessment with the exception this single pilot single engine stuff has got to stop.  Two heads and two engines with IFR capability happens to be the beginning of a solution.  Low level infrastructure the next.

But, none of it will happen.  Why?  


Msg ID: 2554083 Medical staff NOT crew +0/-1     
2/3/2019 12:50:09 AM

Reply to: 2553858

You would last exactly one week at our base. Bye bye, you arrogant, overconfident, soon to be six-feet-under ass-hat.

Msg ID: 2554227 Medical staff NOT crew +0/-0     
Author:Another constructive comment
2/4/2019 2:01:13 AM

Reply to: 2554083
From a know it all jerk o$$. Go back to your bunk you turd.

Msg ID: 2554087 Medical staff NOT crew +4/-1     
2/3/2019 1:13:54 AM

Reply to: 2553858

Unfortunately, EMS in the US will never be dual pilot, unless it is civil service and not profit-based.  The aircraft we are currently using just won't accommodate the extra 200 lbs and no one can afford a 139.  

I've been doing this job more than just a minute and I look at the medical crew issue a different way.  If I think we can go, but there's a chance of diversions and IFR and ground legs and the crew just doesn't want to go, we all just go back to bed.  That's bad how?

It doesn't hurt my ego if I'm not able to do every request.  It's a huge safety liability to be invested that way.

I've worked with these crews a long time and they're very comfortable with me, in fact, they'd let me fly them into a mountainside some night they're so comfortable.  Occasionally in briefings, I remind them to keep an eye on me.  Don't always assume I'm catching every little detail.  Crews have spotted the invisible wire before, which I hadn't seen.  I'm tired and distracted too and every so often complacent.  Everyone needs their butt kicked once in a while.

Checks and balances work best when the opposing parties have different priorities and strengths.  To prove that, you can look back over 100 years of flight crash data where the first officer was too reluctant to question the captain.

Just my opinion



Msg ID: 2554218 that first officer was qualified in the acft (NT) +0/-0     
Author:and governed by the FAR's
2/3/2019 10:41:42 PM

Reply to: 2554087

Msg ID: 2554237 At my base, my mechanic makes the weather +1/-0     
2/4/2019 6:21:26 AM

Reply to: 2553858

He doesn't want to bring the aircraft out of service for maintenance, so he decides the weather sucks to fly and does his maintenance with no penalty.

Msg ID: 2554272 Works for me, not in my lane. (NT) +0/-0     
2/4/2019 10:20:35 AM

Reply to: 2554237

Msg ID: 2554611 Works for me, not in my lane. +0/-0     
2/6/2019 3:22:01 PM

Reply to: 2554272

Except weather OOS is charged to operations. (that's you)

What a deal, scheduled maintenance with no downtime charged! Sounds like maint mgmt bonus time to me! (and more missed flights charged to the some point, you're gonna care)

Msg ID: 2554613 No, at no point would I care. (NT) +0/-0     
2/6/2019 3:26:08 PM

Reply to: 2554611

Msg ID: 2554328 Medical staff NOT crew +3/-0     
Author:I don't care.
2/4/2019 3:54:29 PM

Reply to: 2553858
They can call them med-crew, flight-crew, self-loading-baggage or Flying Purple People Eaters for all i care. I am simply a highly specialized and highly skilled technician. I'm just the pilot. If the med "crew" want to do their jobs and its safe to fly, I'll fly them. If the med "crew" wants to sit on their lazy asses instead of doing their job, even though its perfectly safe to fly, then we'll decline and not fly. Doesn't matter to me. I don't get paid by the flight or the flight hour, and its not my job to try to force med "crew" to do theirs.

Msg ID: 2554334 Medical staff NOT crew +0/-0     
2/4/2019 5:14:08 PM

Reply to: 2554328

Looks as if “I don’t care” is spot on! Makes sense and spoke the truth.

Msg ID: 2554345 Medical staff NOT crew +0/-0     
Author:Yeah dude.
2/4/2019 6:02:36 PM

Reply to: 2554334
"I don't care" stopped sweating the small stuff a long time ago. This is the easiest schedule with the easiest flying (95% of the time... as long as you make good decisions) you'll ever find. If you're letting med "crew" drama or laziness get to you, you're doing it wrong.

Msg ID: 2554916 Medical staff NOT crew +0/-0     
2/8/2019 6:56:48 PM

Reply to: 2554328

Good one.  Stick to the truth.