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Msg ID: 2020564 777 Asiana pilot low-down +34/-2     
7/12/2013 3:21:45 PM


After I retired from UAL as a Standards Captain on the –400, I got a job as a simulator instructor working for Alteon (a Boeing subsidiary) at Asiana. When I first got there, I was shocked and surprised by the lack of basic piloting skills shown by most of the pilots. It is not a normal situation with normal progression from new hire, right seat, left seat taking a decade or two. One big difference is that ex-Military pilots are given super-seniority and progress to the left seat much faster. Compared to the US, they also upgrade fairly rapidly because of the phenomenal growth by all Asian air carriers. By the way, after about six months at Asiana, I was moved over to KAL and found them to be identical. The only difference was the color of the uniforms and airplanes. I worked in Korea for 5 long years and although I found most of the people to be very pleasant, it’s a minefield of a work environment ... for them and for us expats.



One of the first things I learned was that the pilots kept a web-site and reported on every training session. I don’t think this was officially sanctioned by the company, but after one or two simulator periods, a database was building on me (and everyone else) that told them exactly how I ran the sessions, what to expect on checks, and what to look out for. For example; I used to open an aft cargo door at 100 knots to get them to initiate an RTO and I would brief them on it during the briefing. This was on the B-737 NG and many of the captains were coming off the 777 or B744 and they were used to the Master Caution System being inhibited at 80 kts. Well, for the first few days after I started that, EVERYONE rejected the takeoff. Then, all of a sudden they all “got it” and continued the takeoff (in accordance with their manuals). The word had gotten out. I figured it was an overall PLUS for the training program.


We expat instructors were forced upon them after the amount of fatal accidents (most of the them totally avoidable) over a decade began to be noticed by the outside world. They were basically given an ultimatum by the FAA, Transport Canada, and the EU to totally rebuild and rethink their training program or face being banned from the skies all over the world. They hired Boeing and Airbus to staff the training centers. KAL has one center and Asiana has another. When I was there (2003-2008) we had about 60 expats conducting training KAL and about 40 at Asiana. Most instructors were from the USA, Canada, Australia, or New Zealand with a few stuffed in from Europe and Asia. Boeing also operated training centers in Singapore and China so they did hire some instructors from there.


This solution has only been partially successful but still faces ingrained resistance from the Koreans. I lost track of the number of highly qualified instructors I worked with who were fired because they tried to enforce “normal” standards of performance. By normal standards, I would include being able to master basic tasks like successfully shoot a visual approach with 10 kt crosswind and the weather CAVOK.  I am not kidding when I tell you that requiring them to shoot a visual approach struck fear in their hearts ... with good reason.  Like this Asiana crew, it didnt’ compute that you needed to be a 1000’ AGL at 3 miles and your sink rate should be 600-800 Ft/Min. But, after 5 years, they finally nailed me. I still had to sign my name to their training and sometimes if I just couldn’t pass someone on a check, I had no choice but to fail them. I usually busted about 3-5 crews a year and the resistance against me built. I finally failed an extremely incompetent crew and it turned out he was the a high-ranking captain who was the Chief Line Check pilot on the fleet I was teaching on. I found out on my next monthly trip home that KAL was not going to renew my Visa. The crew I failed was given another check and continued a fly while talking about how unfair Captain Brown was.


Any of you Boeing glass-cockpit guys will know what I mean when I describe these events. I gave them a VOR approach with an 15 mile arc from the IAF. By the way, KAL dictated the profiles for all sessions and we just administered them. He requested two turns in holding at the IAF to get set up for the approach.  When he finally got his nerve up, he requested “Radar Vectors” to final. He could have just said he was ready for the approach and I would have cleared him to the IAF and then “Cleared for the approach” and he could have selected “Exit Hold” and been on his way. He was already in LNAV/VNAV PATH. So, I gave him vectors to final with a 30 degree intercept.  Of course, he failed to “Extend the FAF” and he couldn’t understand why it would not intercept the LNAV magenta line when he punched LNAV and VNAV. He made three approaches and missed approaches before he figured out that his active waypoint was “Hold at XYZ.”  Every time he punched LNAV, it would try to go back to the IAF ... just like it was supposed to do. Since it was a check, I was not allowed (by their own rules) to offer him any help. That was just one of about half dozen major errors I documented in his UNSAT paperwork. He also failed to put in ANY aileron on takeoff with a 30-knot direct crosswind (again, the weather was dictated by KAL).


This Asiana SFO accident makes me sick and while I am surprised there are not more, I expect that there will be many more of the same type accidents in the future unless some drastic steps are taken. They are already required to hire a certain percentage of expats to try to ingrain more flying expertise in them, but more likely, they will eventually be fired too. One of the best trainees I ever had was a Korean/American (he grew up and went to school in the USA) who flew C-141’s in the USAF. When he got out, he moved back to Korea and got hired by KAL. I met him when I gave him some training and a check on the B-737 and of course, he breezed through the training. I give him annual PCs for a few years and he was always a good pilot. Then, he got involved with trying to start a pilots union and when they tired to enforce some sort of duty rigs on international flights, he was fired after being arrested and JAILED!


The Koreans are very very bright and smart so I was puzzled by their inability to fly an airplane well. They would show up on Day 1 of training (an hour before the scheduled briefing time, in a 3-piece suit, and shined shoes) with the entire contents of the FCOM and Flight Manual totally memorized. But, putting that information to actual use was many times impossible. Crosswind landings are also an unsolvable puzzle for most of them. I never did figure it out completely, but I think I did uncover a few clues. Here is my best guess. First off, their educational system emphasizes ROTE memorization from the first day of school as little kids. As you know, that is the lowest form of learning and they act like robots. They are also taught to NEVER challenge authority and in spite of the flight training heavily emphasizing CRM/CLR, it still exists either on the surface or very subtly. You just can’t change 3000 years of culture.


The other thing that I think plays an important role is the fact that there is virtually NO civil aircraft flying in Korea. It’s actually illegal to own a Cessna-152 and just go learn to fly. Ultra-lights and Powered Hang Gliders are Ok. I guess they don’t trust the people to not start WW III by flying 35 miles north of Inchon into North Korea.  But, they don’t get the kids who grew up flying (and thinking for themselves) and hanging around airports. They do recruit some kids from college and send then to the US or Australia and get them their tickets. Generally, I had better experience with them than with the ex-Military pilots. This was a surprise to me as I spent years as a Naval Aviator flying fighters after getting my private in light airplanes. I would get experienced F-4, F-5, F-15, and F-16 pilots who were actually terrible pilots if they had to hand fly the airplane. What a shock!

Finally, I’ll get off my box and talk about the total flight hours they claim. I do accept that there are a few talented and free-thinking pilots that I met and trained in Korea. Some are still in contact and I consider them friends. They were a joy! But, they were few and far between and certainly not the norm.


Actually, this is a worldwide problem involving automation and the auto-flight concept. Take one of these new first officers that got his ratings in the US or Australia and came to KAL or Asiana with 225 flight hours. After takeoff, in accordance with their SOP, he calls for the autopilot to be engaged at 250’ after takeoff. How much actual flight time is that? Hardly one minute. Then he might fly for hours on the autopilot and finally disengage it (MAYBE?) below 800’ after the gear was down, flaps extended and on airspeed (autothrottle). Then he might bring it in to land. Again, how much real “flight time” or real experience did he get. Minutes! Of course, on the 777 or 747, it’s the same only they get more inflated logbooks.


So, when I hear that a 10,000 hour Korean captain was vectored in for a 17-mile final and cleared for a visual approach in CAVOK weather, it raises the hair on the back of my neck.


Msg ID: 2020572 777 Asiana pilot low-down (NT) +2/-0     
Author:I hear ya bro
7/12/2013 3:39:39 PM

Reply to: 2020564

Msg ID: 2020577 Asiana just released +11/-1     
Author:the crew's names...
7/12/2013 3:47:21 PM

Reply to: 2020564

 Asiana just released the crew's names...

Capt. Sum Ting Wong
Capt. Wi Tu Lo
F.O. Ho Lee F u k
F.O. Bang Ding Ow

Jumpseater: Sum Yung Boi

Msg ID: 2020598 Asiana just released +0/-0     
Author:Change the name
7/12/2013 4:52:34 PM

Reply to: 2020577

Mo F o k airlines

Msg ID: 2020578 777 Asiana pilot low-down +3/-0     
7/12/2013 3:52:24 PM

Reply to: 2020564

Wow...............Unbelievable.  Not holding folks to REAL standards is going to kill more people.  Sad.

Msg ID: 2020584 777 Asiana pilot low-down +3/-0     
Author:Capt Easy
7/12/2013 4:11:15 PM

Reply to: 2020564

If I recall, Claire Chennault found the same kinds of problems when he went to China, which lead to him forming the AVG. After WWII he ran a civilian airline in and around China, but I don't recall reading about him hiring any asian pilots.

There are a number of airlines in China, and many (if not all) have been actively seeking experienced pilots. It's the result of fast growth and the need for meat in the seat. It would be interesting to hear how any expat pilots are doing over there. It's also not uncommon to find expats among the pilot ranks in many third world airlines. 

Msg ID: 2020608 777 Asiana pilot low-down +0/-0     
7/12/2013 5:04:42 PM

Reply to: 2020584

Some US co pilots (think)know more than than experienced captains. They would be captains if they did but for some reason cannot figure that out.

Msg ID: 2020650 777 Asiana pilot low-down +1/-0     
7/12/2013 6:17:57 PM

Reply to: 2020584

A former American China Air pilot (a laid off Aloha airline Captain) once told me, he had to fly the 757 on his own because the China Air trained SIC couldn’t do anything. He said he feared for his life on every flight. So much so, he quit and returned to the US to fly an R22……..

Msg ID: 2020590 You wouldn't let that guy drive a fire truck +0/-0     
Author:Oh, wait...
7/12/2013 4:33:00 PM

Reply to: 2020564


One of two Chinese girls killed when a plane crashed at San Francisco airport last week was hit by a fire truck as she lay on the tarmac, police say.

Ye Mengyuan, 16, was found covered in fire-fighting foam in the tyre tracks of the truck. It is not clear if she was still alive when it hit her.

Asiana flight 214 hit a sea wall and crashed short of the runway, as it approached too low and too slowly.

Dozens of passengers were also wounded, although most suffered minor injuries.

"We know for sure she was at least run over one time, but at the time she was under foam, so nobody could have seen her," San Francisco Police Chief Greg Suhr told the San Francisco Chronicle.

Ye's cause of death has not yet been established, but county coroners have suggested their findings could be released next week.

She and another Chinese 16-year-old who died, Wang Linjia, had been in the rear of the plane, where many of the most seriously injured passengers were seated, but their bodies were found on the tarmac.

About 30 surviving passengers remain in hospital, many with serious spinal injuries.

The plane came in much too shallow last Saturday before its main landing gear struck a sea wall well short of the end of the runway, and the 777's tail was ripped off.

The airplane went into a 360-degree spin before coming to rest.

Officials have said that pilots only realised the plane was flying too slowly seconds before the crash.

The pilot, who was about half way through his training, pushed the throttles forward to speed up and then tried to abort the landing, but it was too late.

Msg ID: 2020616 You wouldn't let that guy drive a fire truck +1/-0     
Author:Regional Disaster
7/12/2013 5:11:31 PM

Reply to: 2020590

To add fuel to the fire, the Regional Center for Disaster and patient placement was San Joaquin General. If you are familar with the region, it is a small hospital with no resources, and their EMS Director has terminal shot-man syndrome paired with an ego the size of the state. Needless to say, the triage and transport of all those injured was FUBAR'd in my opinion. Heaven forbid there is a disaster in the bay area or central CA. Having a small-time hospital deciding where patients go is beyond logic, especially when you have solid Level I Trauma centers in the bay area as well as Sacramento. Was told they only requested burn care for all patients, forget the trauma part.


Just another part of the chain of events that left a lot of people at the whim of politics and people not trained or willing to do what's right vs. keeping the status quo. Total tragedy all the way around.

Msg ID: 2020773 You wouldn't let that guy drive a fire truck +1/-0     
7/12/2013 10:17:12 PM

Reply to: 2020616

180+ patients is going to immediately overwhelm ANY system, no matter how advanced.  Plane crashes have always been and will continue to be absolute tragic cluser-f's.





Msg ID: 2022659 777 Asiana pilot low-down +0/-0     
Author:My view
7/15/2013 10:25:25 PM

Reply to: 2020564

With the exception of the "hands on" vs "autipilot" portion of your statement, this all applies to Asian helicopter pilots too.  You will see it in Japanese, Chinese, Korean, Indian, Paki and even into "the Stans".  The tools they have seem to stop at whatever they can rote memorize.  It is the "one in a hundred" or less Asian pilots you find that will actually have what is considered good judgement, seat of your pants skills and one you could count on to make a good decision when faced with a problem tht is not "text book".  It is a fact of life from the cutlture they grow up in.